[mr1303]

Scoring: MP

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1H (3S) ?

Further question in hidden text below.

Spoiler

If you bid 4H, you get the predictable 4S on your left, passed back round to you. Now what?

[dellache]

4♥. First answer is easy.
Then I pass 4♠, and could be wrong in practice. My shape is not as good as it looks : I will be the long Hand, and my xxx in minors look very bad. If it was the day for the very famous sac r/w, too bad.

This post has been edited by dellache: 2009-October-28, 07:56

[Fluffy]

well vulnerability matters, for some people 4♥ creates a forcing pass sequence (yuck). With these methods I would have to pass or go to the 5 level.

I think I am bidding 4♥ then 5. Hopefully some minor honnors are onside for us, but ruffed if playing in spades.

[andy_h]

I reckon I've done my deed with 4♥ so I pass. We are unfav and we could be going for -2 doubled for a complete bottom. Partner could have doubled to show a bit of life in which we could leave it in had we held more values.

[gnasher]

4♥ then 5♥. I don't have any defence to 4♠, so it's probably making. 5♥ might make too, or it might be only one down against 4♠, or it might be two down but not get doubled.

[ArtK78]

If you are going to bid 4♥ then 5♥, you should bid 5♥ the first time.

The odds of the opponents bidding 4♠ if you bid 4♥ are so close to 100% that it makes no sense to bid 4♥ if you intend to bid 5♥ later. But if you bid 5♥ the first time, they are more in the dark about the correct action.

Personally, I think it is clear at any other vulnerability to bid 5♥ over 3♠. At this vulnerability you have to make a decision. I think I would bid 5♥.

[jdonn]

I think 4♥ then 5♥ is the worst strategy. Most of the opposition strength lies with LHO since RHO made a w/r preempt, so I'm very likely to be doubled when I should be. I'm just not going to risk 500 at mps. So to me the question is 4♥ or 5♥ right now. I think LHO will usually have enough spades and short enough hearts that he will bid 5♠ if I bid 5♥, but it's a huge risk at mps. I suppose I'll take the chance, even though this is a strategy I generally don't approve of.

[mr1303]

Is 5H here pre-emptive?

I'd have thought it'd be asking for a spade control for a slam, or at least some sort of strong action since they've pre-empted.

[rhm]

ArtK78, on Oct 28 2009, 09:32 AM, said:

If you are going to bid 4♥ then 5♥, you should bid 5♥ the first time.

The odds of the opponents bidding 4♠ if you bid 4♥ are so close to 100% that it makes no sense to bid 4♥ if you intend to bid 5♥ later.  But if you bid 5♥ the first time, they are more in the dark about the correct action.

Personally, I think it is clear at any other vulnerability to bid 5♥ over 3♠.  At this vulnerability you have to make a decision.  I think I would bid 5♥.

Most play a direct 5♥ as a slam try (particularly at this vulnerability), usually asking for control of ♥.
It is not your partner, who preempted.

Furthermore even if you have the agreement that 5♥ is preemptive here, I would not do it. It may be anything but clear to the opponents who is sacrificing here unless you have to tell them, when they ask what a jump to 5♥ means. It is unusual for players to sacrifice at unfavorable vulnerability. In fact I rarely assume opponents to be sacrificing at unfavorable vulnerability.
Of course they sometimes misjudge or it may turn out that way.

If you let yourself be pushed to 5♥, you might well play undoubled, opponents being satisfied to have you pushed to the 5 level. That is the major reason why I would bid on over 4♠ unless my partner doubled. Chances to escape a double are good!

Rainer Herrmann

[pooltuna]

mr1303, on Oct 28 2009, 09:53 AM, said:

Is 5H here pre-emptive?

I'd have thought it'd be asking for a spade control for a slam, or at least some sort of strong action since they've pre-empted.

WHAT!!! You mean someone here has posted a bid that could have TWO meanings one very strong and one very weak. NAH never happens as all bids are clearly defined and only have ONE meaning

[Codo]

direct 5 ♥ is a slam try.
I have no idea whether we are defending or going to make, so I try 4 Heart
I will pass partners double or bid 5 Heart if he passes.

5 Heart will often ask them to bid 5 Spade at this vul, so there is more then one way to win...

[aguahombre]

pooltuna, on Oct 28 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

mr1303, on Oct 28 2009, 09:53 AM, said:

Is 5H here pre-emptive?

I'd have thought it'd be asking for a spade control for a slam, or at least some sort of strong action since they've pre-empted.

WHAT!!! You mean someone here has posted a bid that could have TWO meanings one very strong and one very weak. NAH never happens as all bids are clearly defined and only have ONE meaning

no..5H only has one meaning--what the 5H bidder wants it to mean. It will have the strong meaning to opener.

[Phil]

jdonn, on Oct 28 2009, 09:42 AM, said:

I think 4♥ then 5♥ is the worst strategy. Most of the opposition strength lies with LHO since RHO made a w/r preempt, so I'm very likely to be doubled when I should be. I'm just not going to risk 500 at mps. So to me the question is 4♥ or 5♥ right now. I think LHO will usually have enough spades and short enough hearts that he will bid 5♠ if I bid 5♥, but it's a huge risk at mps. I suppose I'll take the chance, even though this is a strategy I generally don't approve of.

I think 4 and 5 is fine.

LHO doesn't always bid 4♠, and when he does, sometimes partner hammers it.

What makes you think LHO will double a delayed 5♥ and not a direct 5♥?

Furthermore, LHO won't gain anything useful from our RHO when we bid 4♥ - which is usually the reason to bid to the limit of the hand immediately (but not here).

LHO does have the preponderance of defense, but it is sitting under partner. This defense certainly isn't in trump either.

And, the last little bonus is LHO may take the push to 5♠ still hoping for -300 / -500 if we make our 5♥ call in tempo.

[jdonn]

Phil, on Oct 28 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 28 2009, 09:42 AM, said:

I think 4♥ then 5♥ is the worst strategy. Most of the opposition strength lies with LHO since RHO made a w/r preempt, so I'm very likely to be doubled when I should be. I'm just not going to risk 500 at mps. So to me the question is 4♥ or 5♥ right now. I think LHO will usually have enough spades and short enough hearts that he will bid 5♠ if I bid 5♥, but it's a huge risk at mps. I suppose I'll take the chance, even though this is a strategy I generally don't approve of.

I think 4 and 5 is fine.

LHO doesn't always bid 4♠, and when he does, sometimes partner hammers it.

When we have this shape opposite a 1♥ opening, and they are w/r, the odds LHO doesn't bid 4♠ must be practically negligible.

As for partner hammering, wow I'm really unhappy then! My 4♥ bid could also have been a balanced 13 count, he doesn't know I'm a weak hand with 6 card support.

We can't have it both ways, either he won't double them because I could have this hand, or he will double them hoping for better defense and it will be bad because I have this hand.

Quote

What makes you think LHO will double a delayed 5♥ and not a direct 5♥?

Because in the first case he has already shown his spade support.

Quote

Furthermore, LHO won't gain anything useful from our RHO when we bid 4♥ - which is usually the reason to bid to the limit of the hand immediately (but not here).

See above point.

Quote

LHO does have the preponderance of defense, but it is sitting under partner.  This defense certainly isn't in trump either.

Sitting under partner is irrelevant, he is only doubling with top tricks (which is exactly when we don't want to be doubled).

Quote

And, the last little bonus is LHO may take the push to 5♠ still hoping for -300 / -500 if we make our 5♥ call in tempo.

How is that a bonus for bidding slowly? He is more likely to do that if we make him guess immediately.

[ArtK78]

As a practical matter, responder can virtually never have a hand that is good enough to know that a heart slam depends on only one thing - whether opener has a spade control.

I play 5♥ here as natural and to play.

But if you want to play it as strong and asking for a spade control, go right ahead. You will be waiting for that hand for a long time.

[dellache]

ArtK78, on Oct 28 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

As a practical matter, responder can virtually never have a hand that is good enough to know that a heart slam depends on only one thing - whether opener has a spade control.

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maybe ?
I'd love to bid 5♥ asking for a ♠ control.

[Phil]

Josh is it practically negligible that partner has 4 spades and LHO one? Or LHO has poor ODR and a doubleton spade and is concerned about 800 in 4♠. So I do disagree about 4♠ not happening. I would estimate it will happen 20-25% of the time, which is often enough for me.

I also think LHO might bid 4 and 5 for the same reason we are bidding 4 and 5! There's a very realistic chance that LHO will buy it doubled in 4♠ when we don't want to venture to 5. And who cares if LHO gets show spade support? Do you think RHO is ever pulling a double of 5♥? Our RHO is completely out of the picture here. If LHO bids 4, bids 4 then 5, or doubles, RHO is for all intensive purposes barred.

Your recent point about a balanced 13 perhaps is the best. However, by bidding 5♥ immediately, we send a message to LHO that, "hey, we don't have much defense against 4♠" so judge accordingly. So while LHO may have to guess what to do over a slow or fast 5♥, its still his decision to make, and the guess really isn't any easier or tougher.

There are some prehistoric discussions on here about 'thrump' doubles, along with 3N-->4♦ being transfers, and it would be an excellent application on this hand.

[jdonn]

Phil, on Oct 28 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Josh is it practically negligible that partner has 4 spades and LHO one?

Yes. What do you want him to have, 11 cards in the minors or something?

Also I agree with Art also that 5♥ asking for a spade control is so rare as to be virtually useless.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Oct 28 2009, 04:38 PM, said:

Quote

What makes you think LHO will double a delayed 5♥ and not a direct 5♥?

Because in the first case he has already shown his spade support.

RHO, having shown his hand, would hardly ever take any action over 5♥, however we reach it. Therefore, from LHO's point of view, the question of what he himself has shown is irrelevant.

ArtK78 said:

As a practical matter, responder can virtually never have a hand that is good enough to know that a heart slam depends on only one thing - whether opener has a spade control.

I play 5♥ here as natural and to play.

But if you want to play it as strong and asking for a spade control, go right ahead. You will be waiting for that hand for a long time.

I play it as a slam try without spade control. That is, it doesn't demand slam if opener has a a spade control, but it does say that responder doesn't have one. 4♠, in contrast, shows a slam try with spade control.

Before today, I'd never heard anyone suggest that 5♥ should be to play in this type of sequence.

I don't see why this is any different from the sequence
  (3♠) 5♥
which we all play as a slam try, don't we?

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Oct 28 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

Before today, I'd never heard anyone suggest that 5♥ should be to play in this type of sequence.

I don't see why this is any different from the sequence
  (3♠) 5♥
which we all play as a slam try, don't we?

There are fewer options on that auction. Here we can play 4♠ as specifically a slam try for hearts. I don't believe it's a common enough distinction to specify a slam try without a spade control because then the 5 level will inherently be risky unless you have most of the rest of the deck in the other suits.