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What's standard?

#1 User is offline   zheddh 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 09:37

What is opener's rebid after a forcing NT with 5-4-(0-4) shape?

after 1 - 1NT

I used to think 2 was clear but i have met people who seem to respond 2.

Does this change if the NT is not forcing as in SAYC?
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#2 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 09:44

Always 2. It's still possible that game is on and the most likely game will reside in hearts (as opposed to 5m). Further developments may allow me to bid 3m to pattern out and if I had started with 2m over 1NT, then I will never be able to get my 4card heart suit across and plus, 1S-1NT-2m-2S/2NT-3H will take up more space than 3m had we started with 2.
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#3 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 10:39

Always 2H but with 5044 bid 2C unless you are strong enough to make a third bid over a minimum bid from partner.
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#4 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 10:43

Always 2, as Jlall said.
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#5 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 11:10

FWIW, I've dabbled in a thought here.

The idea is to play what I would call "Opener's Bart" here.

If you assume that it would not be insane to play that a 2 opening shows spades and diamonds and intermediate values, then it is not unreasonable to also have the auction forced to at least 2 when Opener has spades and diamonds and intermediate values but opens 1. Not exactly the same, but...

If you accept that premise, then 1-P-1NT-P-2 could be forcing, showing either spades and diamonds OR spades and hearts but weak. 1-P-1NT-P-2 would then show spades and hearts and extras.

After 2 (spades and diamonds or spades and hearts but weak), Responder assumes both majors and picks. If Responder picks hearts, Opener converts to 2 if he actually had spades and diamonds. If Responder picks spades, and Opener had spades and diamonds, 2 is probably the right contract, but Opener might bid again (would pass with weak and majors, so any new bid confirms real diamonds, now extras).

If Opener happens to have 5440 spade exactly, he could then opt to bid 2 or 2 as appropriate. There is also the possibility of 1-P-1NT-P-2!-P-2M-P-3, confirming 5440 shape.

This would be even better if Opener had the option of, say, opening 2 or 2 to show spades and diamonds and weak (such that 1-P-1NT-P-2! alwasy is done with extras when Opener has diamonds), but that might not even be necessary.
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#6 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 12:57

kenrexford, on Oct 22 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

FWIW, I've dabbled in a thought here.

The idea is to play what I would call "Opener's Bart" here.

If you assume that it would not be insane to play that a 2 opening shows spades and diamonds and intermediate values, then it is not unreasonable to also have the auction forced to at least 2 when Opener has spades and diamonds and intermediate values but opens 1. Not exactly the same, but...

If you accept that premise, then 1-P-1NT-P-2 could be forcing, showing either spades and diamonds OR spades and hearts but weak. 1-P-1NT-P-2 would then show spades and hearts and extras.

After 2 (spades and diamonds or spades and hearts but weak), Responder assumes both majors and picks. If Responder picks hearts, Opener converts to 2 if he actually had spades and diamonds. If Responder picks spades, and Opener had spades and diamonds, 2 is probably the right contract, but Opener might bid again (would pass with weak and majors, so any new bid confirms real diamonds, now extras).

If Opener happens to have 5440 spade exactly, he could then opt to bid 2 or 2 as appropriate. There is also the possibility of 1-P-1NT-P-2!-P-2M-P-3, confirming 5440 shape.

This would be even better if Opener had the option of, say, opening 2 or 2 to show spades and diamonds and weak (such that 1-P-1NT-P-2! alwasy is done with extras when Opener has diamonds), but that might not even be necessary.

On that idea, I prefer to have some opening bid show 5-4/5-5 in the blacks and play transfers over 1-1NT.
Kind regards,
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#7 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 13:45

Jlall, on Oct 23 2009, 05:39 AM, said:

Always 2H but with 5044 bid 2C unless you are strong enough to make a third bid over a minimum bid from partner.

Smart move 2 would be bad with 5=0=4=4. :lol:
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#8 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 15:49

skaeran, on Oct 22 2009, 01:57 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 22 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

FWIW, I've dabbled in a thought here.

The idea is to play what I would call "Opener's Bart" here.

If you assume that it would not be insane to play that a 2 opening shows spades and diamonds and intermediate values, then it is not unreasonable to also have the auction forced to at least 2 when Opener has spades and diamonds and intermediate values but opens 1.  Not exactly the same, but...

If you accept that premise, then 1-P-1NT-P-2 could be forcing, showing either spades and diamonds OR spades and hearts but weak.  1-P-1NT-P-2 would then show spades and hearts and extras.

After 2 (spades and diamonds or spades and hearts but weak), Responder assumes both majors and picks.  If Responder picks hearts, Opener converts to 2 if he actually had spades and diamonds.  If Responder picks spades, and Opener had spades and diamonds, 2 is probably the right contract, but Opener might bid again (would pass with weak and majors, so any new bid confirms real diamonds, now extras).

If Opener happens to have 5440 spade exactly, he could then opt to bid 2 or 2 as appropriate.  There is also the possibility of 1-P-1NT-P-2!-P-2M-P-3, confirming 5440 shape.

This would be even better if Opener had the option of, say, opening 2 or 2 to show spades and diamonds and weak (such that 1-P-1NT-P-2! alwasy is done with extras when Opener has diamonds), but that might not even be necessary.

On that idea, I prefer to have some opening bid show 5-4/5-5 in the blacks and play transfers over 1-1NT.

That works too, except that it doesn't have an obviously sexy name like "Opener's Bart." You'd have to call it something interesting.

On a more serious note, do transfers allow you to define the strength of the major two-suiter without bypassing 2? Maybe 2 as a relay to diamonds but possibly weak with both majors, such that 2 shows majors but better than average? Or, 2 weak majors but 2 might be strong with majors instead of diamonds? Something like that would work.
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#9 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2009-October-22, 23:14

2H always, don't hide a 4-card major unless there is compelling reason not to show it. But I don't know what that reason could be.
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#10 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2009-October-23, 00:04

kenrexford, on Oct 22 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

skaeran, on Oct 22 2009, 01:57 PM, said:


On that idea, I prefer to have some opening bid show 5-4/5-5 in the blacks and play transfers over 1-1NT.

That works too, except that it doesn't have an obviously sexy name like "Opener's Bart." You'd have to call it something interesting.

How about "Moulin Rouge"?

:)

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