[plaur]

I was subbing tonight and the evening started with a pro giving a 30 min lection (for beginners) on weak two's. He strongly advocated that any new suit (without jump) from responder being invitational only. Im used to RONF. What do you think is the pro and cons of the two methods?

[pooltuna]

plaur, on Oct 19 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

I was subbing tonight and the evening started with a pro giving a 30 min lection (for beginners) on weak two's. He strongly advocated that any new suit (without jump) from responder being invitational only. Im used to RONF. What do you think is the pro and cons of the two methods?

probably works okay for MP but since I have distinct preference for IMPS I also play RONF

[Jlall]

I prefer RONF and it is a more standard treatment (at least in USA, don't know about other countries).

[gwnn]

invitational works well for invitational hands with that suit (and no fit)

F1 works well when you have a very strong one suited hand, or a strongish hand with two suits, or a strongish hand with a suit and fit (these two last categories mean that you have doubt about the strain) and you do OK with the invitational hands too.

I think there's no question about it that the second paragraph occurs more often than the first one.

[Phil]

NF or Inv is fine if you preempt with garbage since frequently theres a better spot.

If you play weak 2's with any grain of discipline, RONF is better.

[Codo]

Besides this: RONF is very easy to play so especially for beginners this is the far superior treatment.

[MattieShoe]

I had to look up "RONF". Amused that this came up:


In vanilla SAYC, a new suit in response to a weak 2 is invitational only, right?

[Mbodell]

I haven't found it too problematic to play NF bids over weak 2's. But I preempt on filthy garbage. We use Ogust for all forcing hands, even when we don't have a fit. If we Ogust and then introduce a new suit, that is the forcing new suit (obviously might be 1 level higher so it isn't exactly the same).

It doesn't matter what you pick so long as you and partner are on the same page (and you follow the alerting rules. At least in ACBL nf bids over weak 2's are alertable).

(And to clarify for anyone who wasn't following, RONF == Raise Only Non Forcing)

[andy_h]

It probably depends on what your weak two's look like. I also prefer ronf.

[bill1157]

Matt Granovetter had an article on this subject and advised (a couple of years ago):

Single raise invitational (not the stupid preemptive treatment)
rebids over 2NT show a second suit.
New suit is non-forcing (but not drop dead either)

I have played this and it works well, particularly if you bid weak 2's with a side 4 card (or 5 card) suit occasionally.

Bill

[Cyberyeti]

andy_h, on Oct 20 2009, 06:11 AM, said:

It probably depends on what your weak two's look like. I also prefer ronf.

Correct, the more wide ranging (not necessarily filthier) your weak 2s, the more you want to play change of suit invitational but NF.

As I play probably the most wide ranging (and filthy) weak 2s of anybody, I play change of suit encouraging but NF.

[aguahombre]

No matter what the "pro's" personal preferences are, I think when teaching or lecturing to B/I level they should talk up the common treatments and the common uses of conventions. that way players will develope a good base of tools that will not be misunderstood when playing with others. If they are taught unusual treatments and do not know what the "common" is, then they will not know what they have to discuss thoroughly in advance and what they have to just briefly go through.

I also think that beginners should not be given more excuses to bid at all when pard opens a weak two, before they have developed their judgement better.

[neilkaz]

andy_h, on Oct 20 2009, 06:11 AM, said:

It probably depends on what your weak two's look like. I also prefer ronf.

I also prefer RONF and unless I am VERY wrong, it is SAYC.

[Lobowolf]

MattieShoe, on Oct 20 2009, 02:25 AM, said:

In vanilla SAYC, a new suit in response to a weak 2 is invitational only, right?

RONF is SAYC, so new suits are forcing.

[jdonn]

My preferred method is suits are non-forcing on the 2 level, forcing on the 3 level. At least that way you can force in any suit below 3NT, and you're more likely to want to go to your suit if the level is lower as well.

But I would definitely consider RONF standard.

[MattieShoe]

Sorry, you guys are right. From SAYC booklet:

Quote

A weak two-bid shows a six-card suit of reasonable quality and 5–11 HCP. On rare occasions it may be a very good five-card suit. It is possible to open a weak two with a poor seven-card suit (not good enough to open with at the three level). Responses:
A 2NT response is forcing, showing game interest. (This applies also if the opponents intervene with a double or a bid.) Opener rebids his suit with a minimum weak two (5–8 points). With a maximum hand opener bids another suit to show a “feature” (ace or king in that suit); lacking a feature, he raises to 3NT and lets responder place the contract.
Any raise of opener’s suit is to play and could be preemptive (weak). A 3NT response is also to play.
“RONF” on the card means “Raise Only Non-Force.” A new-suit response is forcing one round and shows at least a five-card suit. Opener should raise a major suit response with a three-card fit, or perhaps with a doubleton honor.
With no fit for responder’s suit, opener rebids:
With a minimum weak two-bid (5–8 points), rebid the suit at the lowest level.
With a maximum weak two-bid, name a new suit or bid notrump.

[plaur]

Thanks for replies all.
Style of weak two's can be wide ranging! From "if you breathe and have a five card suit, sorry p thought I had six ", through "colors are for kids" to "very disciplined and descriptive".
Regardless of the style you use, if you had to choose method, RONF or not, would the choice depend on the style of weak two's?

[P_Marlowe]

plaur, on Oct 20 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

Thanks for replies all.
Style of weak two's can be wide ranging! From "if you breathe and have a five card suit, sorry p thought I had six  ", through "colors are for kids" to "very disciplined and descriptive".
Regardless of the style you use, if you had to choose method, RONF or not,  would the choice depend on the style of weak two's?

For sure.

Your weak style is the deciding factor, which methods / conventions
make sense, and which methods make no sense at all for you.
Say, you play rock solid weak twos, than Ogust basically does not make
sense, because you "never" will have a "bad" suit, i.e. answer to the 2NT
inquiry will never be given, i.e. the answer structure looses efficiency.


With kind regards
Marlowe