[kfay]

x xx AKQJxx KQxx

imps

1D-3NT

partner's like 13-15 3334

[aguahombre]

Ok, time to invent something and claim that we have played it all along

4S splinter.

[Little Kid]

3NT looks like a 'to play' bid so I'll play him for kings, queens and jacks rather than aces so a pass from me. With two aces, what is the point of consuming all that space and making life tough on partner if he is thinking of slam?

[Jlall]

Lots of issues. For starters, despite our strong diamonds, and the fact that we have 9 diamonds and 8 clubs, we might need to end in 6C. An example hand where this occurs would be KJx AJx xxx AJxx. On a heart lead 6D (or 6N) will go set, but 6C makes on 3-2 clubs.

However, getting to clubs will never really be a confident choice and we might get to the wrong small slam and go set sometimes if partner just has Axxx of clubs and clubs split poorly.

Another issue is that we might belong in 7...again only in clubs. Getting to 7 would require something like AJx AJx xxx AJxx. That is a very specific hand though, and the only possible hand where 7C is good (take away a major suit jack and 3N is probably not a good bid).

That's another argument for bidding clubs.

I alluded to this but some part of this also depends on your requirements for 3N. 13-15 with stoppers is fine, but imo it should also not be a super prime hand, especially not a hand with Axx in a major. You might wrong side, but it also makes slam bidding hard.

There is another issue...it might be right to blast. A scientific auction could easily lead them to find a killing heart lead. Jumping to 6D would have some merit as a blast except that there is too much chance you're off two aces so you can't really do that. But still, keeping them in the dark might be reasonable.

The last issue is that we might well belong in NT, just to play from partners side. Something like AKx KTx xxx Axxx (again this is a primed out hand, maybe some wouldn't bid 3N with this).

Cliff notes:

1) Might need to play clubs
2) Might need to play below slam, slam, or in 7C
3) Might depend on how tight your 3N requirements are
4) Might need to blast to give away info.

Our most obvious option is 4D initiating a cuebidding sequence. If partner bids 4H we can just bid 4N and drive it in opposite 2 aces. If partner has a horrible looking hand he can sign off in 4N which should be ok, if he has QJ of hearts then he will bid 4S and we can avoid slam. Again the problem with this is astute opps might infer we were looking for a heart cue before we bid slam and might lead a heart against 6D.

Since we might need to play clubs, we could bid 4C. Again we might initiate a cuebidding sequence. This is similar to 4D except that we will be able to end in 5C or 6C which may or may not be good (imagine partner with AJx KQx xxx Axxx and we end in 6C, oops).

I prefer something kinda weird. I would just bid 4N. This will ensure playing it from partners side, and it won't give away much info. Still a chance we get to 6 off two aces if partner has 15 missing 2 aces, but its unlikely. The opps won't know what to lead, and it won't sound like an auction where they need to make an aggressive lead.

[pooltuna]

kfay, on Oct 19 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

x xx AKQJxx KQxx

imps

1D-3NT

partner's like 13-15 3334

Well since you play this IMO stupid range then you have Gerber in your conventions basket and now is the time to use it otherwise just bid 6♣ and let partner choose. no doubt partner had

---

and you made a reasonable choice of passing.

[Phil]

aguahombre, on Oct 19 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

Ok, time to invent something and claim that we have played it all along

4S splinter.

And you will get to listen to partner explain how he thought that this was the only way to bid a 5-6

[kfay]

Phil, on Oct 19 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

aguahombre, on Oct 19 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

Ok, time to invent something and claim that we have played it all along

4S splinter.

And you will get to listen to partner explain how he thought that this was the only way to bid a 5-6

Well part of the reason I brought this up was to see what the general opinion of follow-ups was.

I was defending against this hand and in the post-moretem the opps seemed to think that the next bid was shortness.

BTW how is 13-15 a stupid range for this bid (not directed at you, Phil)? You'd rather it just be 13 and that's it? Do you bid 3NT with 11-12? Isn't it generally standard to play this way? How do you play 1m-3N? Some sort of convention?

[skjaeran]

I play 3NT like the OP.

Agree with others that it should not contain such a prime hand that slam is an option. And no Axx/Axxx.

4♠ would be natural for me, showing 5-6 and not a slammish hand.

I'm passing 3NT.

[jdonn]

I certainly won't pass. It's ok to say partner's hand can't be primed out for slam, but there is no condition that says he can't hold 2 aces. Some hand like QJx AJx xxx AJxx seems like a perfectly normal 3NT bid. I mean is 2♣ supposed to be more descriptive on such a hand?

So I accept there may or may not be slam, I won't worry at all about a grand, and it's very likely we would belong in clubs (in fact probably more likely than that we belong in diamonds). So I'll bid 4♣. My biggest concern is about wrongsiding, but I don't see a way around that unless I don't mention clubs which I'm definitely going to do.

[pooltuna]

kfay, on Oct 19 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

Phil, on Oct 19 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

aguahombre, on Oct 19 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

Ok, time to invent something and claim that we have played it all along

4S splinter.

And you will get to listen to partner explain how he thought that this was the only way to bid a 5-6

Well part of the reason I brought this up was to see what the general opinion of follow-ups was.

I was defending against this hand and in the post-moretem the opps seemed to think that the next bid was shortness.

BTW how is 13-15 a stupid range for this bid (not directed at you, Phil)? You'd rather it just be 13 and that's it? Do you bid 3NT with 11-12? Isn't it generally standard to play this way? How do you play 1m-3N? Some sort of convention?

I play it as 3334 with 15-17(a strong NT) and 2NT/1m as forcing generally how you are using 3NT

[nigel_k]

4♣. We definitely shouldn't rule out clubs regardless of what the other continuations mean.

I've never played this way so have no real opinion about whether 4♠ is shortness or a suit. If I was weak 5-6 I would be annoyed not being able to bid 4♠ though.

[aguahombre]

nigel_k, on Oct 19 2009, 02:01 PM, said:

4♣. We definitely shouldn't rule out clubs regardless of what the other continuations mean.

I've never played this way so have no real opinion about whether 4♠ is shortness or a suit. If I was weak 5-6 I would be annoyed not being able to bid 4♠ though.

Yep. Sorry about the bad joke about 4S splinter. If it could show clubs and a stiff spade, then I wouldn't be sorry --but that is not realistic. 4C seems to be the best choice.

[bid_em_up]

kfay, on Oct 19 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

BTW how is 13-15 a stupid range for this bid (not directed at you, Phil)?  You'd rather it just be 13 and that's it?  Do you bid 3NT with 11-12?  Isn't it generally standard to play this way?  How do you play 1m-3N?  Some sort of convention?

In the original SAYC, the range for 1x-2N was 13-15 and 1x-3N was 15-17 (iirc).

In 2/1, its relatively common to play 1x-2N as 10-12, and 1x-3N as 13-15. This is partially due to the fact that in the original 2/1, opening bids were intended to be sounder (12+), so 22-24 combined would be adequate for the 2N bid, and 25-27 was enough for 3N. I prefer these ranges even when playing some flavor of Std. Am. also.

I havent looked lately, so I don't know what the current "treatment" is supposed to be, but the method certainly isn't "stupid".

[Trinidad]

I would rather play partner for ♠KJx ♥KJx ♦xxx♣AJxx, where 5♣ may be down already, then for a bundle of keycards. With the keycard hands, not just Ken, but the whole world will respond 2♣.

Rik

[Jlall]

Trinidad, on Oct 19 2009, 04:36 PM, said:

I would rather play partner for ♠KJx ♥KJx ♦xxx♣AJxx, where 5♣ may be down already, then for a bundle of keycards. With the keycard hands, not just Ken, but the whole world will respond 2♣.

Rik

If you bid 5C you will get to 4N opposite that hand!

[aguahombre]

Jlall, on Oct 19 2009, 05:56 PM, said:

Trinidad, on Oct 19 2009, 04:36 PM, said:

I would rather play partner for ♠KJx ♥KJx ♦xxx♣AJxx, where 5♣ may be down already, then for a bundle of keycards. With the keycard hands, not just Ken, but the whole world will respond 2♣.

Rik

If you bid 5C you will get to 4N opposite that hand!

or even if you bid 4C.

[Phil]

kfay, on Oct 19 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

BTW how is 13-15 a stupid range for this bid (not directed at you, Phil)? You'd rather it just be 13 and that's it? Do you bid 3NT with 11-12? Isn't it generally standard to play this way? How do you play 1m-3N? Some sort of convention?

I rarely play 3N as 13-15 LOL, but I also consider 13-15 fairly standard.

I usually play it as something sort of funny - like a 4♦ call with a little extra that doesn't want to bypass 3N - like Axx xxx QTxxxx x.

[andy_h]

I'm definitely not going to pass, there's just too much potential for a club slam with these solid diamonds. If partner doesn't have the suitable hand we could always get out in 4NT or 5♣.

But most of this depends on what style 1m-3NT is based on since all 13-15's aren't the same. I'm guessing there's no particular agreement about that, so now, how to proceed the auction. I think I'll bid 4♣ even though this may be wrongsiding it.
I admire Jlall's 4NT but if this particular partner can bid 3NT on a Qxx in a major then I don't want to stop in 4NT.

[kgr]

Jlall, on Oct 19 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

.....
Our most obvious option is 4D initiating a cuebidding sequence. If partner bids 4H we can just bid 4N and drive it in opposite 2 aces. If partner has a horrible looking hand he can sign off in 4N which should be ok, if he has QJ of hearts then he will bid 4S and we can avoid slam. Again the problem with this is astute opps might infer we were looking for a heart cue before we bid slam and might lead a heart against 6D.

Since we might need to play clubs, we could bid 4C. Again we might initiate a cuebidding sequence. This is similar to 4D except that we will be able to end in 5C or 6C which may or may not be good (imagine partner with AJx KQx xxx Axxx and we end in 6C, oops).

Can you bid 4♦ and if partner cues and you RKC with 4NT then bid 6♣ to give partner a choice or would 6♣ be something else?

[aguahombre]

andy_h, on Oct 20 2009, 06:39 AM, said:

but if this particular partner can bid 3NT on a Qxx in a major then I don't want to stop in 4NT.

And if the QXX is spades, I dont want to stop in 3NT either.