[Trinidad]

Lobowolf, on Nov 12 2009, 08:59 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Nov 11 2009, 09:26 PM, said:

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much, clearly at the time they wrote they had access to and quoted many sources that are now lost.

This is quite a bold assumption - nothing has been found to prove my argument so those writings must be lost.

I think the argument isn't "nothing has been found to prove my argument, so those writings must be lost," but rather, the assertion is "a lot of stuff (writings) from 2,000 years ago almost certainly has been lost," which in turns undercuts the opposing argument, "no writings support your assertion, so it is inaccurate."

An interesting characterization of the quoted excerpt, though. If I were innocent or guilty, I'd want that sort of facility in my attorney.

I think you are flipping things around.

The original argument was not that lack of documentation would prove that Jesus didn't exist. The original argument was that Jesus did exist, because it was well documented by independent contemperary sources (e.g. Roman records). That sounds to me like a pretty strong argument.

But then the question came: What records and documents are you talking about?

Now, we are at the stage in the discussion where it is fairly clear that those records just aren't there. That doesn't disprove the assumption that Jesus existed. It only nullifies the original argumentation that Jesus existed because there were lots of records. What sounded like a pretty strong argument is reduced to... nothing. Nothing for and nothing against. While the fact that no writings were found may be a mild indication if these writings would have been expected, it is certainly no evidence that Jesus never existed.

But now, Phils argumentation takes a new, more fun, turn. He essentially says:

Jesus existed, because there were lots of contemporary records that show this. Okay, we have never found any of those records, but that just means that they were lost.

Based on that kind of reasoning, I can make a case that Little Red Ridinghood existed: We all know the story of her life (Grandma, cookies, wolf). There is even a birth certificate that shows that she existed. What are you saying? There is no birth certificate for Little Red Ridinghood?!? Well, err, then they must have lost it. Little Red Ridinghood existed because her -now lost- birth certificate said so.

I am just as lost as Little Red Ridinghood's birth certificate.

Rik

[helene_t]

(Re: incomplete fossil vs incomplete historical record). Both arguments are valid (well, all four arguments it is), aren't they?

It's just that the weaker the evidence, the more plausible an idea has to be in order to be taken serious or accepted by the scientific community.

Anyway, I don't think anyone here is disputing that Jesus was executed or even that it's likely that he was executed. It's just that someone called it one of the best documented events before the dark ages. Sorry, that is simply not true, unless you take the view that the Bible is one of the most reliable ancient documents we have.

[shyams]

The original topic was about a cross on US Govt public land and the honourable Justice's views about it

[Lobowolf]

Trinidad, on Nov 12 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

Lobowolf, on Nov 12 2009, 08:59 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Nov 11 2009, 09:26 PM, said:

Quote

much, clearly at the time they wrote they had access to and quoted many sources that are now lost.

This is quite a bold assumption - nothing has been found to prove my argument so those writings must be lost.

I think the argument isn't "nothing has been found to prove my argument, so those writings must be lost," but rather, the assertion is "a lot of stuff (writings) from 2,000 years ago almost certainly has been lost," which in turns undercuts the opposing argument, "no writings support your assertion, so it is inaccurate."

An interesting characterization of the quoted excerpt, though. If I were innocent or guilty, I'd want that sort of facility in my attorney.

I think you are flipping things around.

The original argument was not that lack of documentation would prove that Jesus didn't exist.

I'm not flipping things around, and I'm not addressing "the original argument." I'm addressing a specific element of the argument; one that was excerpted (not by me). Expanding that excerpt to the complete sentence:

"The fact that they wrote a bit later doesnt matter much, clearly at the time they wrote they had access to and quoted many sources that are now lost. "

I think the implication of this particular element was what was flipped around. I agree that the non-existence of a thing is not support for its previous existence, but I don't think anyone is making that case.

[blackshoe]

barmar, on Nov 12 2009, 03:18 AM, said:

And that's only 2,000 years ago, fossils are millions of years old.

Impossible. The whole Universe was only created 6000 years ago.

[Winstonm]

I wonder what it implies that religions other than Christianity were also around in the first-third centuries.

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If beleif in the existence of Christ was widespread as early as 80-100 ad, then its very unlikely that he couldn't have existed

Is the same argument valid for other god figures?

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Three foreign religions, all from the Middle East, acquire by the third century a considerable following in the Roman world. They have a personal quality lacking in the official Roman cult. Believers become members of a closely knit group, enjoying a special relationship with the god and with each other. There are initiation ceremonies, in some cases secret. As a result these eastern cults are often grouped together under the title of mysteries or mystery religions.

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One such cult, popular in the Roman capital, centres on the Egyptian goddess Isis. She is a giver of life, an enchantress who is able to restore to health her husband, Osiris, after his body has been sliced into fourteen pieces and scattered all over Egypt by the villainous Seth.

The story is a version of a worldwide myth, that of plants being brought back to life in the spring. But when adopted as a personal deity, Isis seems to promise her initiates health and life in a more general sense.

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More exclusive is Mithraism. Only males are admitted to the sect, so not surprisingly many of its devotees are in the Roman army. There are seven ranks, described as Raven, Bridegroom, Soldier, Lion, Persian, Courier of the Sun and Father, each with its own initiation ceremonies (the sequence of seniority is not known). Worshippers meet in a small underground crypt, with at one end a sculpture of the god Mithras sacrificing a bull.

The cult comes from Iran, where Mithras is both a creator and a guardian against evil. Merchants on the trade routes are among the god's followers, but the strongest appeal is to the poorer sections of society. This is true also of early believers in the third contending religion
   

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Christians resemble the other mystery cults in having an initiation ceremony (baptism) and a private ritual (the Eucharist). Rumours of cannibalism, or the eating of their god, cause them to be regarded with extra suspicion. So does their quiet rejection of many everyday activities. But above all they have a peculiarity, seen by the state as sinister, which they share only with the Jews. They refuse to worship any god but their own.

The Jews are a much longer estabished group, with a clear racial identity; the Romans have to some extent become accustomed to their not worshipping the gods of Rome. There seems less excuse for the Christians. Their reluctance to take part in the Roman cult leads, in the 3rd century, to their persecution.

I suppose this is proof of the existence of both Mithras and Jesus:

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The spread of both Mithraism and Christianity can be seen at the two extremes of the empire. Doura-Europos, a frontier post on the Euphrates abandoned in about AD 257, has buildings associated with both religions.

Thousands of miles away, in Britain, there is a temple of Mithras in London in the early 4th century. Also in England, and from the same century, a very early depiction of Jesus Christ (young, clean-shaven, with curly fair hair) survives in a mosaic pavement at Hinton St Mary.