[phil_20686]

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 11:26 AM, said:

phil_20686, on Oct 6 2009, 06:09 PM, said:

On another note, if you bid 7N and its wrong, partner will be very upset and may play badly. Some partners would be more than a little upset even when it works. This should not be discounted particularly if it is early in the session (or the partnership).

That I can buy. And I do consider that very important.

On the other hand, if you have a constructive partner, who wants to build up the partnership, you can apologize at the table. At a later point in time you can show partner this discussion and say that as a rule, you would never ever bid 7NT, but that you thought that your hand was an exception to the rule.

A good partner should then understand that you bid 7NT with the best intentions. He may even appreciate that you are not a slave to golden bidding principles, but that you are thinking when you play bridge. And he may appreciate that thinking doesn't always work.

Rik

I wish to know where you find your partners. Also, that they forgive you later doesnt help if they throw 30 imps on teh day because of it .

[Trinidad]

phil_20686, on Oct 6 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

I wish to know where you find your partners. Also, that they forgive you later doesnt help if they throw 30 imps on teh day because of it .

Completely off topic and a more serious reply than you wanted :

I agree with you that I am very lucky with my current regular partner.

When we started the partnership, we agreed on two truisms:
- Both of us will make mistakes.
- Both of us want to do well.
And we put some time and effort in learning to believe and trust these truths.

If you accept these conditions, it is a lot easier to forgive partner for his blunders, even if he thinks they are "brilliancies that just didn't work out". Just remember that you are just as "brilliant" as your partner, otherwise you would have found a better one, wouldn't you? Accepting this means that you don't have to throw away 30 IMPs on the rest of the boards to manage your anger or irritation.

Simply put: If you think you don't make mistakes and deserve a partner who doesn't make any either, you will not get the partner you expect.

BTW: I have an even better partner than my regular bridge partner. But since we are married (to each other ) with children, we don't get to play together more than once a year or so.

Rik

[Lobowolf]

whereagles, on Oct 6 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

Then exercise judgement on top when you believe it's right, like in this case: bid 7NT if you need to take a shot, pass otherwise.

We made a pretty narrow bid. Presumably, if we need to take a shot, partner was aware of that fact when he chose not to invite 7.

[rhm]

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

rhm, on Oct 6 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

Most Bridge players would open this hand 1NT without second thought.
I believe the true mistake is in opening this hand 1NT and the fact that you consider raising to 7NT more or less proves this.
The hand should be  upgraded to a balanced 18-19 and opened 1♦ with the intention to jump rebid in notrump.
This is at worst a slight overbid for notrump game evaluation but is certainly correct for suit evaluation and for slam purposes.           

Rainer Herrmann

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

In my view you need to evaluate hads differently based on where you are going.

Well they pay bonuses for game and slam.

Of course you do not know where you are going when you pick up a hand, but you should immediately evaluate how suitable your hand is for a high level contract.
If I downgrade a hand and make a trick more in a low level part-score, who cares? Precision at the game and slam level is what matters

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

If you make a decision whether to bid game or not good old HCPs, with some adjusting for distribution, degree of fit, etc. works just fine.

This is just too simplistic:
HCP works reasonable in low level notrump contracts. For game decisions, particular suit contracts HCP is a poor guide and even you indirectly admit this by speaking about numerous "adjustments".

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

Suppose you hold a hand like:

♠ QJxx
♥ KQJ
♦ Kxx
♣ KQJ

You have 18 HCPs, but you decide to downgrade to 16 because of the 4333 and the "quackiness" of the hand. So you open a 15-17 1NT. If partner passes, and puts 3HCPs in dummy, you expect to make 1NT, despite the fact that you called this a 16 point hand. In other words, at the part score level, the hand is actually worth about 17.5 points.

I am not so sure you would make one notrump, but yes HCP works well at the one-notrump-level (BIG DEAL!)

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

Now, partner invites game by bidding 2NT. You need to be fairly pessimistic to pass that. So, at the game level, the hand is worth about 16 points.

That's why I downgraded to 16 points

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

Now take the same hand, again you open 1NT. Partner bids Stayman, you respond 2♠ and -for lack of methods and for the sake of this argument- he jumps to 5♠ as a quantitative invitation to 6♠. Should you accept? In my opinion you shouldn't. If partner has what you need, he wouldn't have bid just 5♠. He would have decided to bid 6♠ himself. Therefore, at the slam level, the hand is worth 14-15 points.

Differently to you I would be quite worried to go down in 5 spades!

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

Now, take the other extreme: 4 aces and spaces. You consider it a good 17 HCP hand and open 1NT. If partner passes and puts down 3 HCPs, you now that you are in trouble. So at the part score level, your hand isn't worth that "good 17 HCPs", it may actually be worth less than 15.

I open 1 Diamond and I am not in trouble

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

If your partner invites game, you will accept, since, for game evalution it is a good 17.

I would be worried that partner will consider his hand not worth an invite (7-8 HCP with few controls) and we end up in 1NT and 3 overtricks

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

And if your partner invites a slam, you will have a hand that falls outside your 15-17 NT range. Now you have about 19.

So, when you are evaluating at the slem level, quacks are less valuable and controls are more valuable, not only for the purpose of control, but also for the possibility to develop tricks.

So, your method of hand evaluation needs to depend on the level (and denomination) that you want to bid for. At low levels at NT, quacks have relatively high value. At high level in suits, quacks become less important and aces rule.

Now this is nothing new. We all know this. But it means that at the time that you pick up a balanced hand with 4 aces, and you have to make an opening bid, you don't know whether your 4 aces are worth less than 15 or as much as 19. Blaming opener for opening a 15-17 1NT with 4 aces is therefore a bit unfair.

BTW: Would those that consider this an 18 point hand open the hand a 20-21 2NT if I would add two points by changing the lowest spade into the ♠Q? What would they say if partner puts 3 HCPs in the dummy?

Rik

Of course I would

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

4 aces and spaces

If that's supposed to be a description of the hand in the original post, I don't think it's accurate. The hand wasn't Axx Ax Axxxx Axx; it was A97 Ax A1097x A10x.

[Trinidad]

gnasher, on Oct 6 2009, 09:16 PM, said:

Trinidad, on Oct 6 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

4 aces and spaces

If that's supposed to be a description of the hand in the original post, I don't think it's accurate. The hand wasn't Axx Ax Axxxx Axx; it was A97 Ax A1097x A10x.

I agree that 'aces and spaces' is not the best description of a hand that also contains 2 tens and 2 nines.

But the alternative phrasing 'aces, spaces, 2 tens and 2 nines' () is starting to get pretty long. And my posts are already not among the shortest.

Rik

[MinorKid]

One of the problem is on the 5 card suit.
If the suit fits well, the 5th card worths an extra trick (3 points). Otherwise it does not worth (1 point, however not much in a slam).
However we never know unless you say somthing about it.
--------------------------
Gee i guess i just PASS HERE.
If only Aces is his concern why don't he just use gerber? Obviously partner wants something more than A's (A five card suit ? or extra honors ? I can't tell).

[jjbrr]

Nice bump