[sheilafran]

what are steps responses after 2 club opening

[gwnn]

don't learn them they're horrible. Also don't learn control responses they're almost equally horrible.

Anyway they are usually something like:

2d=0-4
2H=5-8
2S=9-11
etc.

Makes no mention of your shape or anything helpful.

[ArtK78]

gwnn, on Oct 5 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

don't learn them they're horrible. Also don't learn control responses they're almost equally horrible.

Anyway they are usually something like:

2d=0-4
2H=5-8
2S=9-11
etc.

Makes no mention of your shape or anything helpful.

Don't dismiss control showing responses to 2♣. In competent hands, control responses can be quite good. Hence the reason that many strong club systems use control showing responses over 1♣ openings.

Point showing step responses are a beginner's crutch.

[TylerE]

Yea, I like controls. My preferred scheme is:

2♦ = 0 or 1
2♥ = 2
2♠ = exactly 1 Ace and 1 King (3)
2NT = 3 Kings (3)
3♣ = 4+ controls

[gwnn]

but there are also (sort of) point showing responses to strong ♣ something like

1♦ = 0-7
1♥ = 8-11
1♠+ = 12+

or

1♦ = 0-4 or 8+
1♥+ = 5-7

played by many competent partnerships. The point you have enough room to establish both strength and shape. If you have less room, shape comes before points.

Control showing responses over 2♣ (or for that matter 1♣) work well whenever opener is balanced. They work less well when opener is unbalanced and looks for a fit.

[ArtK78]

Control showing responses to 2♣ openings work well in all sorts of hands. Immediately, opener knows whether the hand is a game or slam range hand. 10 or more combined controls puts the hand in the slam range, and 8-9 controls makes slam possible if there is distribution and a fit. Otherwise (except in extreme cases), game is the limit. And, of course, there are some hands where you can get out in 2NT or 3 of a major after 2♣-2♦(0 or 1 control)-2NT.

I have played control showing responses to 1♣ as part of Blue Club and in response to several of the strong openings as part of Romex, in addition to standard 2♣ openings. I cannot recall any hand where "standard" responses would have made the auction easier, but I do recall several hands where control showing responses made the auction easier.

I will say that the 2♦ control showing response to 2♣ can include a variety of hands, ranging from xxx xxx xxx xxxx to KQJx QJTx x QJTx. This can require some delicate handling.

[gnasher]

gwnn, on Oct 5 2009, 09:13 AM, said:

don't learn them they're horrible. Also don't learn control responses they're almost equally horrible.

Anyway they are usually something like:

2d=0-4
2H=5-8
2S=9-11
etc.

Makes no mention of your shape or anything helpful.

If I reduce your ranges by a point, swap 2D and 2H, and bid naturally with the strongest range, I get:

  2D = 4-7
  2H = 0-3
  2S+ = 8+, natural

If I then decide that I only bid 2S+ on good suits, I get:

  2D = 4-7, or 8+ without a good suit
  2H = 0-3
  2S+ = 8+, natural, good suit

Does that look familiar?

[gwnn]

gnasher, on Oct 5 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

(...)Does that look familiar?

Yes, but nobody would call that "step responses" anymore. If your point is that step responses can't be so horrible because they are so close to expert standard, I disagree, mostly because of your seemingly mild addition

Quote

If I then decide that I only bid 2S+ on good suits,

which makes a huge difference. Now opener can describe his hand in peace without having to worry about partner bidding (for instance) 2NT "9-11 any" or something like that.

[Gerben42]

I also play step responses:

2♦ = I have something
2♥ = I have nothing

[pirate22]

Firstly-consider what can a 2cl opener have--% wise its either a single suited hand,a 2 suiter hand-or a strong balanced hand or a hand that the opener does not want you to pass if opened with 1 any(which is feasiable-just)

"Modified Norman responses" this i have adapted and played for a number of years,with a modicom of success 90%--but as usual requires sensible application,
the 2 clubber(opener)is prepared for the responses. AN ACE=1 point &K=1/2 point

2cl----2d=0
2h=1K
2s=1A
2n/t=1A&1K
3c=2K (important)
3d=3K
3h=2points(either 4Kor 1A&2K
3s=2 1/2 points
3n/t=3 points

when the responder gives replies above the 3h/3s/3n/t which has happenend,hence my warning be prepared .
my suggestion is discuss this with ones partner and dive in the deep end ,or discuss, and use your usual system,and then apply later the above, to actual hands that come up.

One exception the 4n/t opener---you hold

AKQJ976--AKQJ--void--KJ ones partner should bid the ace he has 5d if its d
and 6 cl if its c and 5n/t if he has both
bonne voyage in your endeavours

[Zelandakh]

As a junior I played very similar step responses to Gerben's over our reverse Benji 2♦ opener (Acol 2 or strong 3-suiter)...

2♥ = got nothing
2♠ = got enough for game

Funnily enough it was quite effective

[kenrexford]

ArtK78, on Oct 5 2009, 09:09 AM, said:

Control showing responses to 2♣ openings work well in all sorts of hands. Immediately, opener knows whether the hand is a game or slam range hand.

I'm not sure how convincing this is, as stated.

I mean, sure. Knowing that fact is nice. However, I could easily argue that step-spade-length responses are also great. 2D=1, 2H=2, 2S=3, etc., and say that "we immediately know whether spades are trumps or not trumps, and how long the suit is, and maybe even get a splinter in really eaarly, in a manner of speaking."

The question is whether this early info is more useful than alternative sources of early info, like strain info. Granted, higher control count does allow more strain resolution space, such as if a response of say 4+ controls means that the auctuion is forced to at least the five-level. That way, an eventual 4♠ or 4NT call would be forcing, which helps with strain resolution.

[blackshoe]

If I'm not mistaken, it was Garrozzo who originated control showing responses - or he was an early advocate of them. I haven't seen anything directly from him on it recently, but my understanding is that he's now decided that a more natural initial response system — so hopefully finding strain early — is better than showing controls.

That said, Romex still uses control showing responses (to both 2♣ and 1NT) , and my understanding is that they work well in that context.

[barryallen]

ArtK78, on Oct 5 2009, 08:44 AM, said:

gwnn, on Oct 5 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

don't learn them they're horrible. Also don't learn control responses they're almost equally horrible.

Anyway they are usually something like:

2d=0-4
2H=5-8
2S=9-11
etc.

Makes no mention of your shape or anything helpful.

Don't dismiss control showing responses to 2♣. In competent hands, control responses can be quite good. Hence the reason that many strong club systems use control showing responses over 1♣ openings.

Point showing step responses are a beginner's crutch.

The big difference with something like precision, is normally opener goes into control asking once definition from partner has been obtained or not required. Precision is so good for slams because it saves so much space and allows full definition with these asking bids.

When you start off with 2♣, the control response, you can be eating up your bidding space without a fit up to the 4 level and without knowledge of where the control responses are! I don't know of any top pairs that use control responses to 2♣ but would certainly like to look at any that do, or any such system which is an improvement.

[blackshoe]

barryallen, on Oct 16 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

The big difference with something like precision, is normally opener goes into control asking once definition from partner has been obtained or not required. Precision is so good for slams because it saves so much space and allows full definition with these asking bids.

When you start off with 2♣, the control response, you can be eating up your bidding space without a fit up to the 4 level and without knowledge of where the control responses are! I don't know of any top pairs that use control responses to 2♣ but would certainly like to look at any that do, or any such system which is an improvement.

Some versions of Precision may do that. I've seen others where the controls are shown by responder's initial response. But at least some of those limit the level. Romex does so, for example. After a forcing 1NT opening, or a GF 2♣ opening, the highest control showing response is 3♣, showing 6 controls. As opener should have 6 for his bid, that's pretty much all you need. Higher responses show specific shapes (3♦/♥ for example are transfers, GF, showing in essence a weak two in the transfer major). When the forcing opening is 1♣ in Romex, essentially the same structure applies, but one level lower.

Frequently opener can tell precisely which control cards responder has from opener's own control holding. Not always, but often.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Oct 5 2009, 09:15 AM, said:

gwnn, on Oct 5 2009, 09:13 AM, said:

don't learn them they're horrible. Also don't learn control responses they're almost equally horrible.

Anyway they are usually something like:

2d=0-4
2H=5-8
2S=9-11
etc.

Makes no mention of your shape or anything helpful.

If I reduce your ranges by a point, swap 2D and 2H, and bid naturally with the strongest range, I get:

  2D = 4-7
  2H = 0-3
  2S+ = 8+, natural

If I then decide that I only bid 2S+ on good suits, I get:

  2D = 4-7, or 8+ without a good suit
  2H = 0-3
  2S+ = 8+, natural, good suit

Does that look familiar?

Yes but I really don't think much of that system either, although it does have a lot of popularity.

Anyway despite gwnn's simple example, I think step responses are typically smaller 2 or 3 point ranges that are more spread out, like

2D=0-2
2H=3-5
2S=6-8
2N=9-11

and so on. That is a pretty big waste of space imo.

Frankly I think bidding 2♦ on 100% of hands, while not my first choice, is better than many of the systems I see out there today.

[pirate22]

re-Kenrexfords comment early info and Strain??? stepped responses are not for beginners,(They must learn to walk before they run)
there should be no strain/pressure-the 2cl has the 3 types of hands long single suit,a 2 suited hand,or a balanced n/t rebid and there are pass out situations below game level example 2c-pass-2d(less than 1 K) pass
2hts-pass-PASS-pass
pard holds xxx-xx-jxxx-xxxx the 2cl when it comes round to him when he bids 2 hts,he must realise this could be passed as in thecase above,he must re bid 4 hts,again passable--if he wants a further response the 2cl bids (Not 2 hts) but 2n/t,pard will now bid his lowest 4 card suit,unless the partnership, includes stayman/transfers by agreement--this sequence is perhaps what ken is referring to as strain/pressure.
Yes as in any system there is exception to the rules,but if looked at in circumspect,anomalies can be adjusted,by agreement,but keep the discipline intact.
regards

[jjbrr]

pirate22, on Oct 18 2009, 09:46 PM, said:

re-Kenrexfords comment early info and Strain??? stepped responses are not for beginners,(They must learn to walk before they run)
there should be no strain/pressure-the 2cl has the 3 types of hands long single suit,a 2 suited hand,or a balanced n/t rebid and there are pass out situations below game level example  2c-pass-2d(less than 1 K) pass
                            2hts-pass-PASS-pass
pard holds  xxx-xx-jxxx-xxxx  the 2cl when it comes round to him when he bids 2 hts,he must realise this could be passed as in thecase above,he must re bid 4 hts,again passable--if he wants a further response the 2cl bids (Not 2 hts) but 2n/t,pard will now bid his lowest 4 card suit,unless the partnership, includes stayman/transfers by agreement--this sequence is perhaps what ken is referring to as strain/pressure.
Yes as in any system there is exception to the rules,but if looked at in circumspect,anomalies can be adjusted,by agreement,but keep the discipline intact.
regards

wat?

Edit: Don't play steps anything. Either play 2♥=bad or 2♦=almost auto. You don't get extra points for having X number of HCPs or controls. You get bonuses for bidding game/slam and making the contract. Learn to evaluate and judge properly.

[pirate22]

STRAIN= difficulty in nominateting trumps--lets deal with that ,if there can be a problem,another contributor suggests to use simply 2h=0 and 2d= almost auto,
thinking out loud lets nominate some hands
(a) Ax-KQJ-AKQJ976-A or ( KJ-x-A-AKQJ97642 or© AX-AKQJx-V-AKQJ96.

using steps on any of the above lets say firstly p rsponse is 2d=0
(a) 5 d (b)3cl ©3cl but if the reply is either 2h/2s/2n/t we have a different ball game
now suggestion 2h=0 2d?something. reply 2hts=0 same answers 2hts=?the replies would be same awaiting further developements.
if 2cl opener has a balanced n/t hand one would reply 2n/t to 0 response.
what would be usefull is an input of hands,that readers have come a cropper on,awaiting developements in this strain
regards

[hrothgar]

barryallen, on Oct 16 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

I don't know of any top pairs that use control responses to 2♣ but would certainly like to look at any that do, or any such system which is an improvement.

I seem to recall that K-S used control showing responses to a strong 2♣ opening. Aces Scientific might have as well.

(Obviously, both systems are a bit long of tooth)