[Tcyk]

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

barryallen, on Oct 16 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

I don't know of any top pairs that use control responses to 2♣ but would certainly like to look at any that do, or any such system which is an improvement.

I seem to recall that K-S used control showing responses to a strong 2♣ opening. Aces Scientific might have as well.

(Obviously, both systems are a bit long of tooth)

That is correct at least in Kaplan-Sheinwold Revisited:

2♦ = 0-3 points, If 3, not a king.
2♥ = 3-4 points, Not 2 kings or an ace.
2♠ = 2 controls, A=2, K=1
2NT = 3 kings
3♣ = 1 ace and 1 king
3♦ = 4 controls
etc.

[pirate22]

Need some hands plse---------------
As an aside no one has mentiontend opps coming in say

2cl--2d/2ht/2sp/2n/t/x no problem

say 2d(opp) pard uses x to show 0 points
say 2ht " x to show 1K
say 2sp " x to show 1A
say 2n/t await developements must mean something in opps system
say x " pard still responds steps.

in other words pard uses opp bid to convey info

Have been plying hands nothing yet im surprised,need hands please
regards

[barryallen]

Tcyk, on Oct 20 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

barryallen, on Oct 16 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

I don't know of any top pairs that use control responses to 2♣ but would certainly like to look at any that do, or any such system which is an improvement.

I seem to recall that K-S used control showing responses to a strong 2♣ opening. Aces Scientific might have as well.

(Obviously, both systems are a bit long of tooth)

That is correct at least in Kaplan-Sheinwold Revisited:

2♦ = 0-3 points, If 3, not a king.
2♥ = 3-4 points, Not 2 kings or an ace.
2♠ = 2 controls, A=2, K=1
2NT = 3 kings
3♣ = 1 ace and 1 king
3♦ = 4 controls
etc.

thank you,
but that was exactly the type of system I was running so hard from. If having any A+K means slam is more or less guaranteed, then I suppose yes.

But hearing 3♣ from partner when I am about to bid ♠ may not be totally constructive in getting us to the correct position.

[ArtK78]

barryallen, on Oct 21 2009, 10:07 AM, said:

Tcyk, on Oct 20 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

barryallen, on Oct 16 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

I don't know of any top pairs that use control responses to 2♣ but would certainly like to look at any that do, or any such system which is an improvement.

I seem to recall that K-S used control showing responses to a strong 2♣ opening. Aces Scientific might have as well.

(Obviously, both systems are a bit long of tooth)

That is correct at least in Kaplan-Sheinwold Revisited:

2♦ = 0-3 points, If 3, not a king.
2♥ = 3-4 points, Not 2 kings or an ace.
2♠ = 2 controls, A=2, K=1
2NT = 3 kings
3♣ = 1 ace and 1 king
3♦ = 4 controls
etc.

thank you,
but that was exactly the type of system I was running so hard from. If having any A+K means slam is more or less guaranteed, then I suppose yes.

But hearing 3♣ from partner when I am about to bid ♠ may not be totally constructive in getting us to the correct position.

The problem may not be so much the response methods used but rather the stregth of your 2♣ opening bids.

I limit 2♣ openings to unbalanced hands with 3 or less losers and balanced hands with 22+ HCP. So, if partner's control response shows and ace and a king, then it is likely (not guaranteed) that we do have a slam. So I am not so worried about the level that we start exploring for a suit fit (I may already have a fit in hand anyway). As for balanced hands, if I bid 3NT over 3♣ partner knows that I am minimum - 22-24 HCP - and he can invite if he has more than just an ace and a king, or explore for a 4-4 fit using Stayman or Baron, whichever method the partnership favors.

If one does not open 2♣ on marginal hands - say, 4 and 5 loser 21 HCP hands - many of the problems complained about relating to control showing responses disappear.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Oct 21 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

If one does not open 2♣ on marginal hands - say, 4 and 5 loser 21 HCP hands - many of the problems complained about relating to control showing responses disappear.

True, then you simply put your problems into all of your 1 level opening bids which are now much wider!

[barryallen]

ArtK78, on Oct 21 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

The problem may not be so much the response methods used but rather the stregth of your 2♣ opening bids.

I limit 2♣ openings to unbalanced hands with 3 or less losers and balanced hands with 22+ HCP. So, if partner's control response shows and ace and a king, then it is likely (not guaranteed) that we do have a slam. So I am not so worried about the level that we start exploring for a suit fit (I may already have a fit in hand anyway). As for balanced hands, if I bid 3NT over 3♣ partner knows that I am minimum - 22-24 HCP - and he can invite if he has more than just an ace and a king, or explore for a 4-4 fit using Stayman or Baron, whichever method the partnership favors.

If one does not open 2♣ on marginal hands - say, 4 and 5 loser 21 HCP hands - many of the problems complained about relating to control showing responses disappear.

That was what I was trying to refer to with If having any A+K means slam is more or less guaranteed, then I suppose yes. But do you really want to restrict yourself to hands where any A+K combination guarantees slam?

[fred]

gnasher, on Oct 5 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

If I reduce your ranges by a point, swap 2D and 2H, and bid naturally with the strongest range, I get:

  2D = 4-7
  2H = 0-3
  2S+ = 8+, natural

If I then decide that I only bid 2S+ on good suits, I get:

  2D = 4-7, or 8+ without a good suit
  2H = 0-3
  2S+ = 8+, natural, good suit

Does that look familiar?

I do something like this, but instead of 2S being 8+ with a good suit, it is 8+ with a balanced hand.

This works well when opener has an unbalanced hand because he knows immediately that, not only does responder have substantial values, he also knows that responder has some support for opener's long suit.

When opener has a balanced hand the 2S bid has no real impact (versus, say, playing 2S as a natural positive).

My (extensive, subjective, and possibly biased) experience playing these methods suggests that 2H negative and 2S as a balanced positive are both good things.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[barryallen]

fred, on Oct 21 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

gnasher, on Oct 5 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

If I reduce your ranges by a point, swap 2D and 2H, and bid naturally with the strongest range, I get:

  2D = 4-7
  2H = 0-3
  2S+ = 8+, natural

If I then decide that I only bid 2S+ on good suits, I get:

  2D = 4-7, or 8+ without a good suit
  2H = 0-3
  2S+ = 8+, natural, good suit

Does that look familiar?

I do something like this, but instead of 2S being 8+ with a good suit, it is 8+ with a balanced hand.

This works well when opener has an unbalanced hand because he knows immediately that, not only does responder have substantial values, he also knows that responder has some support for opener's long suit.

When opener has a balanced hand the 2S bid has no real impact (versus, say, playing 2S as a natural positive).

My (extensive, subjective, and possibly biased) experience playing these methods suggests that 2H negative and 2S as a balanced positive are both good things.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

thank you,
Why select 8+ for your positive balanced 2♠ response?
And what are your direct 3 of a suit responses over 2♣?

[fred]

barryallen, on Oct 21 2009, 04:38 PM, said:

thank you,
Why select 8+ for your positive balanced 2♠ response?
And what are your direct 3 of a suit responses over 2♣?

The basic idea is that, when responder's hand falls within a certain range, he is under some pressure to make a slam try opposite an unbalanced 2C opener but does not have enough values to force to slam. When responder has this sort of hand it is often the case that the auction doesn't time well for him and he eventually has to guess whether or sign off in game or to drive to slam (perhaps after bidding Blackwood first). Bidding 2S right away with these hands lets responder get the message off his chest immediately.

The exact range I am referring to is a function of partnership style (specifically style pertaining to when you open 2C with unbalanced hands). In my regular partnerships this starts at around a good 8 points. Putting a cap on the 2S bid may or may not be a good idea. FWIW I normally play that 2S has an upper limit of a bad 11 HCP - with more than that we would tend to drive to slam.

We also play that 2NT is a positive response in either major, 3C is a positive response in diamonds, and 3D is a positive response in clubs. You don't want to know what higher bids mean

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[mikeh]

fred, on Oct 21 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

barryallen, on Oct 21 2009, 04:38 PM, said:

thank you,
Why select 8+ for your positive balanced 2♠ response?
And what are your direct 3 of a suit responses over 2♣?

The basic idea is that, when responder's hand falls within a certain range, he is under some pressure to make a slam try opposite an unbalanced 2C opener but does not have enough values to force to slam. When responder has this sort of hand it is often the case that the auction doesn't time well for him and he eventually has to guess whether or sign off in game or to drive to slam (perhaps after bidding Blackwood first). Bidding 2S right away with these hands lets responder get the message off his chest immediately.

The exact range I am referring to is a function of partnership style (specifically style pertaining to when you open 2C with unbalanced hands). In my regular partnerships this starts at around a good 8 points. Putting a cap on the 2S bid may or may not be a good idea. FWIW I normally play that 2S has an upper limit of a bad 11 HCP - with more than that we would tend to drive to slam.

We also play that 2NT is a positive response in either major, 3C is a positive response in diamonds, and 3D is a positive response in clubs. You don't want to know what higher bids mean

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Does 3♣ over 2N then ask responder to transfer to his major? Obviously, this structure, if used (and it seems logical to me to use this), would strain the methods when opener has a 2♣ opener based on clubs. If you do, in fact, use this approach, how do you deal with opener having a club one-suiter?

If you don't use this method, how does opener ascertain responder's suit?

[fred]

mikeh, on Oct 21 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

fred, on Oct 21 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

barryallen, on Oct 21 2009, 04:38 PM, said:

thank you,
Why select 8+ for your positive balanced 2♠ response?
And what are your direct 3 of a suit responses over 2♣?

The basic idea is that, when responder's hand falls within a certain range, he is under some pressure to make a slam try opposite an unbalanced 2C opener but does not have enough values to force to slam. When responder has this sort of hand it is often the case that the auction doesn't time well for him and he eventually has to guess whether or sign off in game or to drive to slam (perhaps after bidding Blackwood first). Bidding 2S right away with these hands lets responder get the message off his chest immediately.

The exact range I am referring to is a function of partnership style (specifically style pertaining to when you open 2C with unbalanced hands). In my regular partnerships this starts at around a good 8 points. Putting a cap on the 2S bid may or may not be a good idea. FWIW I normally play that 2S has an upper limit of a bad 11 HCP - with more than that we would tend to drive to slam.

We also play that 2NT is a positive response in either major, 3C is a positive response in diamonds, and 3D is a positive response in clubs. You don't want to know what higher bids mean

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Does 3♣ over 2N then ask responder to transfer to his major? Obviously, this structure, if used (and it seems logical to me to use this), would strain the methods when opener has a 2♣ opener based on clubs. If you do, in fact, use this approach, how do you deal with opener having a club one-suiter?

If you don't use this method, how does opener ascertain responder's suit?

You have the right idea.

3C is either clubs or balanced and asks opener to transfer to his major.

3NT over 2NT is natural and non-forcing with long clubs.

I suppose it could get be a little awkward when opener has clubs, but since we don't make suited positive responses very often, it hasn't been a bid deal for us (in fact, it hasn't even been a small deal - during the 4 or so years we have been playing this, I don't recall responder ever bidding 2NT when opener had long clubs).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[gwnn]

Hi MikeH, nice to see you again.

hanp and cherdanno taught me these 2NT positive responses and the idea was that 3C was either asking or clubs then:

2C 2NT
3C 3D/H hearts/spades

If opener completes he is relatively balanced and trumps is set if he doesn't he has clubs.

[nige1]

Mike Ash makes me play something like ....

• 2♦ = 9+ HCP.
  
• 2♥ = 0-4 HCP or Flat 5-8 HCP .
  
• 2♠ = 5-8 HCP. 2-suiter. Now 2N = relay...
  • 3♣ = 2 suiter without ♣. Now 3♦ = relay ...
    • 3♥ = ♦ & ♠.
      
    • 3♠ = ♦ & ♥.
      
    • 3N = ♥ & ♠.
    
    
  • 3♦ = ♣ & ♥.
    
  • 3♥ = ♣ & ♠.
    
  • 3♠ = ♣ & ♦.
  
  
• 2N = 5-8 HCP. 3-suiter. Now 3♣ = relay ...
  • 3♦/♥/♠ = shortage.
    
  • 3N = short ♣.
  
  
• 3♣/♦/♥/♠ = 5-8 HCP. Transfer with single suiter.

His sensible idea is for responder to show shape with the most frequent point-count, while trying to avoid becoming declarer.

[pirate22]

Greetings Two hands under fire conditions :ph34r

Hand 1

AQ97543--AK8--3--AQ Resp Kx--QJ9--AQxx--KJxx
2cl 3h* (2 points) what a response
must be 1A& 2 K whick K's?
so 3sp 4cl(K cl)
4h 4sp (K sp)
7 sp pass but later prd told me considered 7 n/t
because of Q holdings
so contibutors what result would the get to 7 n/t x1 7sx1 lots in 6n/t/6sp

Hand 2

AK--AKQ86532--A8--x RESP Q10xx--Void--109xx--KJ109x
again a game going hand not proud but it got us there.
2cl 2h(1K)
4ht 4n/t* (A and K enquiry) unusual but legit
5cl(3- 1/2)points 6hts
lucky but top result

I happened to be dealer on both hands not consecutive.
but both hands i considered as game going and bidding proceeded with 2cl,using steped Norman responses

Have read Fred's input,and it needs my digestion,some good points especially if openers opener is based on long club suit,will add later regards

[precpj]

if Jimmy Cayne ( JEC) and his many many world class stars are in sync with this treatment, this calls for your attention:

2D is at most 1 control
2H is 2 controls
2S is 3 controls and ALL in same suit
2NT = any 3 controls NOT in same suit

When a 2nt response to 2C is meant to play natural and weaker than 3 controls = NOT good bridge =beginner crutch ( quoting comment on other reply) etc etc

With a pick up partner this is a decent treatment suggested by Marty Bergen in his Better Bidding with Bergen about page 120? good for "average player" as said in the book

2D waiting
new suit bid is a "decent suit and decent hand" 8+ HCP and suit quality example KTXXX diplayed in the book. My style is 2 of top3 7+ HCP i bid the suit

If going with controls

Marty suggest

2D 0-1control 0-4 HCP
2H 0-1 control 5+
2S 2 controls etc etc

the most important thing is: agreement ie many versions are all playable

PJ

[ArtK78]

pirate22, on Oct 23 2009, 04:26 AM, said:

Greetings Two hands under fire conditions :ph34r

Hand 1

AQ97543--AK8--3--AQ    Resp Kx--QJ9--AQxx--KJxx
            2cl                                  3h* (2 points) what a response
must be 1A& 2 K whick K's?
so        3sp                                  4cl(K cl)
            4h                                    4sp (K sp)
            7 sp                                  pass but later prd told me considered 7 n/t
                                                            because of Q holdings
so contibutors what result would the get to 7 n/t x1 7sx1 lots in 6n/t/6sp

I would NEVER think about opening 2♣ on that hand.

If you open 2♣ on such weak hands, control responses are going to get you into trouble.

Having said that, what was responder thinking when his partner opened 2♣? Did he check to see that they were using cards from the same deck?

[pirate22]

artk i stress control responses to 2cl openers are for experienced players .
you do not state which hand u would never open 2cl,but you fail to say what final contract your method employs with what result.
agree 2nd hand exotic partner knows the 2cl has a big single suited hand,hence responders 4n/t,according to openers stepped response can sign off in 5 any
give answers ,your comment accepted but contribute ty regards

[jjbrr]

Uh? I'm not sure control responses are for experienced players. I would think just the opposite. I certainly would never play any sort of control responses, because I'm much, much more keen on opener describing his hand while saving as much space as possible, finding the right strain, landing in the right game when it's right, and using judgment and good cuebidding when slam is possible.

Experienced players who understand how to evaluate their honors and can cuebid effectively, I would argue, do not need control responses.

Assuming partner opens 2♣ with a real 2♣ opener (and not the hand 1 you provided), I've never really had too much of a problem judging approximately how useful my hand is to partner.

With that said, I generally play precision, so I save even more space. And I definitely do not play control responses over that, either.

[ArtK78]

Pirate:

I showed the hand that I would not open 2♣ on - the first hand in your post.

jjbrr:

I disagree that control responses are not for experienced players. In fact, in the hands of experienced players, they work quite well.

As for using control responses with the Precision 1♣ opening, perhaps you should rethink your priorities. Control responses work very nicely with strong 1♣ openings. But perhaps I am biased from years playing Blue Club and Romex.

[jjbrr]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm certain I won't rethink my priorities regarding strong ♣. I can't think of anything better than finding myself in a GF at the one level and having all the room in the world to bid naturally. Not only do I get to judge the relative value of my controls, I get to judge how good my shortnesses and Qs and Js are too. Don't worry, I'll get to cuebid my controls along the way!

Surely you don't believe that being in a GF after a 2♣-some control response at the 3-level, with neither hand describing anything whatsoever about their distribution, is even remotely comparable.

Edit: And I would say anytime 2♣ opener has a void, the space taken up by control responses becomes an enormous obstacle.