[kaydea]

Nothing is as irritating as my partner or opps telling me to claim when I am playing the hand. I was under the impression that dummy should be just that, dumb. Not in the sense of being stupid but as a silent observer. I have a note on my profile that says "DO NOT tell me to claim" I added it after watching a game where one of the kibbitzers shouted "CLAIM" to the table. This would be unacceptable in a club so why should it be any different on line?

Someone I played with recently told me about playing in a tournament and one of the opps, a "world class" player, told her to claim, she carried on to finish the hand and received a private message from the opp calling her an idiot. She complained to the TD who told the opp to apologise..cold comfort IMHO, but that is a different subject.

So, are there guidelines anywhere that I could reference?

[nige1]

kaydea, on Oct 3 2009, 09:15 AM, said:

Nothing is as irritating as my partner or opps telling me to claim when I am playing the hand. I was under the impression that dummy should be just that, dumb. Not in the sense of being stupid but as a silent observer. I have a note on my profile that says "DO NOT tell me to claim" I added it after watching a game where one of the kibbitzers shouted "CLAIM" to the table. This would be unacceptable in a club so why should it be any different on line? Someone I played with recently told me about playing in a tournament and one of the opps, a "world class" player, told her to claim, she carried on to finish the hand and received a private message from the opp calling her an idiot. She complained to the TD who told the opp to apologise..cold comfort IMHO, but that is a different subject. So, are there guidelines anywhere that I could reference?

Laws and regulations forbid advice but I know of no separate guidelines on this specific infraction.

• Although players may be trying to help, they are cheating if they're bright enough to know what they are doing.
  
• When partners and kibitzers tell you to claim, they sometimes know something you don't (for example a suit is breaking). In practice, all you can do is to ask partner to desist (you can explain that he is slowing down the game, and increasing the chance that you will make a mistake).
  
• When opponents barrack you in this way, the solution is simpler. Reply "Don't harrass me when you can save time by conceding yourself."

[pooltuna]

kaydea, on Oct 3 2009, 09:15 AM, said:

Nothing is as irritating as my partner or opps telling me to claim when I am playing the hand. I was under the impression that dummy should be just that, dumb. Not in the sense of being stupid but as a silent observer. I have a note on my profile that says "DO NOT tell me to claim" I added it after watching a game where one of the kibbitzers shouted "CLAIM" to the table. This would be unacceptable in a club so why should it be any different on line?

Someone I played with recently told me about playing in a tournament and one of the opps, a "world class" player, told her to claim, she carried on to finish the hand and received a private message from the opp calling her an idiot. She complained to the TD who told the opp to apologise..cold comfort IMHO, but that is a different subject.

So, are there guidelines anywhere that I could reference?

Frankly I am an adherent of CECO = Claim Early Claim Often. Claiming online is vastly different than claiming in real life. But some folks seem to get pleasure just taking tricks. I am not one of them and having opponents do that strains my tolerance.

[Trinidad]

I also dislike dummies who tell me to claim. Nine out of ten times, they haven't paid attention to the game and don't know what is really going on in the hand. And obviously they shouldn't.

On the other hand, if you know that you have all the tricks (or all the tricks except for the high trump) then just claim. Law 74B4 indicates that it is "not done" to keep playing when you can claim.

Every now and then you meet a joker who claims half way in trick 12. That is not going to make the play any faster.

Rik

[barmar]

It's definitely inappropriate for dummy to say anything during the hand.

But a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, they can click the CLAIM button themselves and concede the rest of the tricks (or whatever is appropriate).

[aguahombre]

IMHO, in real life when declarer clearly has all the rest of the tricks she plays each one very slowly and carefully because she knows I am a smoker, and wants to piss me off . I sometimes break etiquette as defender, and concede.

[Free]

barmar, on Oct 4 2009, 04:15 AM, said:

But a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, they can click the CLAIM button themselves and concede the rest of the tricks (or whatever is appropriate).

That's not always true. Sometimes you suspect that declarer can claim, but you're not 100% sure. However you are right that a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, since declarer should claim whenever he can.

Btw, sometimes if you concede all tricks, declarer declines and just plays every card until the very end while they're all winners. That's a clear violation of the rules, but that doesn't get punished.

Imo it would be a lot better if some declarers weren't so childish. If defenders want to draw declarer's attention to the fact that they can claim, they can also be thankful that they can play more hands in the same amount of time. That's what you can call "positive thinking"...

[pooltuna]

Free, on Oct 4 2009, 06:56 AM, said:

barmar, on Oct 4 2009, 04:15 AM, said:

But a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, they can click the CLAIM button themselves and concede the rest of the tricks (or whatever is appropriate).

That's not always true. Sometimes you suspect that declarer can claim, but you're not 100% sure. However you are right that a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, since declarer should claim whenever he can.

Btw, sometimes if you concede all tricks, declarer declines and just plays every card until the very end while they're all winners. That's a clear violation of the rules, but that doesn't get punished.

Imo it would be a lot better if some declarers weren't so childish. If defenders want to draw declarer's attention to the fact that they can claim, they can also be thankful that they can play more hands in the same amount of time. That's what you can call "positive thinking"...

I suppose there is some good reason why declarer is allowed to decline a concession of the rest of the tricks instead of just happening automatically but I am at a loss to think of one.

[kaydea]

pooltuna, on Oct 4 2009, 07:39 AM, said:

Free, on Oct 4 2009, 06:56 AM, said:

barmar, on Oct 4 2009, 04:15 AM, said:

But a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, they can click the CLAIM button themselves and concede the rest of the tricks (or whatever is appropriate).

That's not always true. Sometimes you suspect that declarer can claim, but you're not 100% sure. However you are right that a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, since declarer should claim whenever he can.

Btw, sometimes if you concede all tricks, declarer declines and just plays every card until the very end while they're all winners. That's a clear violation of the rules, but that doesn't get punished.

Imo it would be a lot better if some declarers weren't so childish. If defenders want to draw declarer's attention to the fact that they can claim, they can also be thankful that they can play more hands in the same amount of time. That's what you can call "positive thinking"...

I suppose there is some good reason why declarer is allowed to decline a concession of the rest of the tricks instead of just happening automatically but I am at a loss to think of one.

My question was not about whether to claim or not to claim, it is more about why it should be necessary to tell your p to claim in the first place. BBO isn't going anywhere and we are not running a marathon, so what does it matter if the game takes half a minute longer by not claiming? I always feel like asking what's the hurry? Of course there is an excuse if you just have to get outside for a cigarette, not being a smoker I hadn't thought of that.

I do claim as soon as it is obvious how many of the the remaining tricks I can win. But I have made mistakes on occasion and once the claim is made in a regular game the hands are visible everyone at the table, so it is possible to give opps an advantage they might not have had otherwise.


What has been a surprise to me is the number of people who comment about the note on my profile, so I know I am not the only player with this pet peeve.

[Elianna]

pooltuna, on Oct 4 2009, 04:39 AM, said:

Free, on Oct 4 2009, 06:56 AM, said:

barmar, on Oct 4 2009, 04:15 AM, said:

But a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, they can click the CLAIM button themselves and concede the rest of the tricks (or whatever is appropriate).

That's not always true. Sometimes you suspect that declarer can claim, but you're not 100% sure. However you are right that a defender shouldn't have to tell declarer to claim, since declarer should claim whenever he can.

Btw, sometimes if you concede all tricks, declarer declines and just plays every card until the very end while they're all winners. That's a clear violation of the rules, but that doesn't get punished.

Imo it would be a lot better if some declarers weren't so childish. If defenders want to draw declarer's attention to the fact that they can claim, they can also be thankful that they can play more hands in the same amount of time. That's what you can call "positive thinking"...

I suppose there is some good reason why declarer is allowed to decline a concession of the rest of the tricks instead of just happening automatically but I am at a loss to think of one.

If you as defender think that declarer has all the tricks, but your partner actually gets one of the last ones, then an ethical declarer can refuse your concession.

Of course, declarer could have technically claimed earlier, but if he has, say, Kx opposite xx, and didn't know if he was losing one trick or two, or needed to endplay someone, then your concession will make the claim faster.

[Free]

kaydea, on Oct 4 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

My question was not about whether to claim or not to claim, it is more about why it should be necessary to tell your p to claim in the first place. BBO isn't going anywhere and we are not running a marathon, so what does it matter if the game takes half a minute longer by not claiming? I always feel like asking what's the hurry?

If you claim faster, you can play a lot more boards in the same amount of time. You'll have more fun, you may learn a lot more, and you'll be thinking about useful stuff instead of mindless clicking your cards.

[blackshoe]

Dummy is not permitted to participate in the play (Law 43A1{c}). If he does so, say by telling declarer to claim, then he is liable to procedural penalty (Law 43A3, Law 90).

Spectators are not allowed to participate in the play either, and may be subject to such sanction as the TD or regulation may impose (Law 76). Personally, I'd bar a spectator who did this from the playing area.

If a player is rude to another player, he has violated Law 74, and is subject to procedural penalty under Law 90. In this case, I would award one in addition to requiring the player to apologize.

If a defender tells declarer to claim, declarer should call the director and ask whether the instruction constitutes a concession of all the remaining tricks. It doesn't, but perhaps the director can convince the defender in question to either concede in these situations, or keep his mouth shut.

[MattieShoe]

I play in the relaxed room with lots of beginners and novices, and as dummy, I'll occasionally tell partner they can claim.... I generally wait until they're sitting there with the only 2 trump left in their hand and defender is agonizing over which card to throw because he thinks it's a squeeze.

I realize it's not technically correct to tell partner that, but playing with new players... Some don't know about the claim button, or they're afraid that using it might seem peremptory or rude. Of course, the opposite is true. So I'm trying to politely ease them into etiquette rather than to give them some information they don't have.

I've seen kibitzers tell the table to claim, which is horrible. I apologize to the good players kind enough to allow kibitzers to watch their games -- Most of us wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.

[kaydea]

blackshoe, on Oct 4 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

Dummy is not permitted to participate in the play (Law 43A1{c}). If he does so, say by telling declarer to claim, then he is liable to procedural penalty (Law 43A3, Law 90).

Spectators are not allowed to participate in the play either, and may be subject to such sanction as the TD or regulation may impose (Law 76). Personally, I'd bar a spectator who did this from the playing area.

If a player is rude to another player, he has violated Law 74, and is subject to procedural penalty under Law 90. In this case, I would award one in addition to requiring the player to apologize.

If a defender tells declarer to claim, declarer should call the director and ask whether the instruction constitutes a concession of all the remaining tricks. It doesn't, but perhaps the director can convince the defender in question to either concede in these situations, or keep his mouth shut.

I knew there had to be something somewhere in the laws of bridge, this is just what I wanted to know. I doubt it will change anyone's behaviour but thank you so much for the information.

[JoAnneM]

I was shocked to learn about an aquaintance of mine whom I hadn't seen playing bridge online much lately. She has played world class for her country, and here is the story: In her country now they are only allowed to spend $140 per year on the internet! So her internet time is very limited.

I think that many of us with constant connections forget that many people are still on dialup or other connections that charge by the minute, and are very expensive. That is where claiming quickly becomes important. (you wondered where I was going with this) Playing quickly allows these people to play more bridge.

Oh, the country? Venezuela

[Quantumcat]

I think not claiming when it is really obvious how many tricks you have left, and playing them out slowly, is being rude to your opponents. Especially when you have one loser and you play out your winners to see if someone will be an idiot and throw the wrong thing. To anyone not an absolute beginner that notices you do that, this is an insult, it is saying you think they are stupid enough to throw their one winner. I think anybody is entitled to feel insulted if an opponent does this, unless the opponent is an absolute beginner themselves, and doesn't know the difference between winners and losers, in which case you can forgive them. I do my best to treat my opponents with respect, and this involves claiming when appropriate. I expect my opponents to do the same. Nothing annoys me more than opponents rejecting my claim (I only claim when it is just top cards on BBO, not on crossruffs or anything, to avoid rejections) especially when I am conceding. It means they are just rejecting automatically without looking at all! It also annoys me when opponents just play out their top cards one at a time very slowly, and then agonise at trick 13 whether to play the four of clubs, the four of clubs, or alternatively, the four of clubs. And as already mentioned, when they have one loser that can't go anywhere, and slowly play out their top cards hoping someone will be an idiot ...

anyway I shall stop ranting and say in summary that not claiming when it is obvious is rude or insulting depending on the circumstances, as is rejecting claims on automatic pilot.

Oh, and a good defence if you are playing with a random that rejects declarer's good claim that's not a concession: is to concede ALL of the remaining tricks. This teaches them a lesson about rejecting without looking!!

[barmar]

Quantumcat, on Oct 5 2009, 09:53 PM, said:

I think not claiming when it is really obvious how many tricks you have left, and playing them out slowly, is being rude to your opponents. Especially when you have one loser and you play out your winners to see if someone will be an idiot and throw the wrong thing. To anyone not an absolute beginner that notices you do that, this is an insult, it is saying you think they are stupid enough to throw their one winner

Sometimes the player has two crucial cards, and they could be pseudo-squeezed if they weren't paying attention.

When playing against people I know will understand, if I see them running tricks at the end like this I'll say something like "I'm not discarding the diamond ace" and then they can claim all but that trick.

[billw55]

Well, there can be situations where even an expert defender won't know with certainty what declarer's last card is. Perhaps his partner was not able to give a clear signal due to not having an appropriate spot card, or needing to guard a particular suit, etc. Why not give him a chance to go wrong - especially at matchpoints.

Of course, this should not be done indiscriminately, when a competent defender cannot be in doubt. But once in a while ..

[onoway]

When I first came to BBO I got nailed a couple of times by supposed "experts" claiming with lots of cards left to play and they were trying to avoid losing a setting trick the easy way . So now I insist of figuring it out or, if a lot of cards left and I don't readilly see it, I ask them to play it out. Virtually nobody ever explains their line.

Even now, I don't claim until it is really obvious as esp when playing with the lower level players, it is often faster to play it out than to claim, even if you do explain. I have on occassion rejected my OWN claim and played it out as it was taking so long for the opps to see that with only aces and all the remaining trump in my hand or dummy they were not going to take a trick.

It isn't intending to be insulting to anyone; just the way it is down here in intermediateland. Playing with really good players , it's different as they often know what is what at least as soon as I do so claiming asap works. Still, if an opp asks me to claim, I tell him he is welcome to concede the rest of the tricks, and if he doesn't I recheck my plan

[mycroft]

JoAnne, I don't know if you've seen this thread sparked off by your comment, but it seems (from the Venezuelan poster) that internet *time* isn't metered, just internet purchases.

So your friend can play a yearly maximum of 140 ACBL online sessions, but they can take as much time as they want (of course, there *are* still some places where internet is pay by the minute, I'm not denying that. Airports, for one).

That doesn't change the topic. Dummy calling "claim" needs to be smacked down, somehow. Opponents calling "claim" get "I'm sorry, I'm not as good as you, I can't yet figure it out. Feel free to concede..." Fulfills their superiority complex while still getting the point across.