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Zar Point Questions understanding how it works

#1 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-April-25, 08:01

I'm starting this thread to discuss how to use Zar points (inculding refinements and advanced technique), rather than advocacy/criticism.

I have some questions about Zar Ruffing Power.

Let's assume I have a 5-4-3-1 shape and partner opens 1S showing five.

If I have 3 spades, I can add 2 points for the singleton as I have two more trumps than cards in the short suit. If I had 4 spades, I would count 4 points, if I had 5 spades I would count 6 points.

But if my shape were 4-4-3-2 and I had 3 spades, I can't count 1 for the doubleton because my trumps are not two cards longer than my short suit.

So if I had 4 spades, I would count 1 point total.

Is my understanding correct so far?

Now let's assume opener is 5-3-3-2 with five spades. Does opener count 1 point for the doubleton after the raise?

Now put the 5-3-3-2 opener opposite the 5-4-3-1 responder (with responder having 4 spades). If as we assumed we are playing five-card majors, resonder will count 4 extra points and opener will count 1 after the raise, for a total of 5.

But if on the same hands the partnership were playing 4-card majors, would the opener count 2 points and the responder 2 for a total of 4?

Am I missing something?

Note that the basic Zar superfit points are not affected by the system shift. With 5 card majors, responder counts 3 for the ninth trump, with four card majors opener counts the 3 point for the same 3 point total.
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#2 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-April-25, 11:16

ZAR points
All the info is there, but if that is not good enough let me know. I will try to help.

Mike :lol:
“If there is dissatisfaction with the status quo, good. If there is ferment,
so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.”
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#3 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-April-25, 12:25

You are right all the way.
About you intresting question at the hand, it looks wrong that with the same hand you will count more hcp using 4 card major, however it make sense, the idea is that when we got 9 card fit one of us will count extra points for the 9th trump, if we bid 4 card major then partner have 4 card fit here and i know we got 9 and will get my extra trump bonus, on the other hand playing 5 card major, i wont get the bonus but partner having 4 card will know we got 9 and he will get the bonus.
this is the basic idea, the part about fit is not 100% close in the zar thory atleast for what i understand.
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#4 User is offline   Zar 

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Posted 2004-April-25, 14:45

>
Is my understanding correct so far?
<

Yes.

>
Now let's assume opener is 5-3-3-2 with five spades. Does opener count 1 point for the doubleton after the raise?
<

No.

He has 0 ADDITIONAL trumps so he counts 0x1 = 0 points.

I am surprised you might be confussed. You count ONLY for trumps ABOVE whatever the BID promisses. This does NOT depend on the partner's holding, and actually there is NO WAY it can depend ! Whatever PD holds, it's only HIM who knows it. You only know that:

1) you do have a fit (8 cards) and

2) you count supertrumps on YOUR promissed holding - this means +1 trump if you have 5 AND you play 4-card major and 0 if you play 5-card major. If, for example, you play 5 card major and you open with 6 while your PD has 5, then you count 1 (6-5) and he counts 2 (5-3). Multiplied by whatever hi's short suit is, like 2 if it's a singleton. You actually do NOT get any points for the singleton PER SE - it's the SUPERTRUMP that get's it, rather than the singleton itself.

Everything in Zar Points is simple and clear (I think :-)

Although ... I might be biased :-)

ZAR
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#5 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 02:17

Zar, on Apr 25 2004, 08:45 PM, said:

>
Now let's assume opener is 5-3-3-2 with five spades. Does opener count 1 point for the doubleton after the raise?
<

No.

He has 0 ADDITIONAL trumps so he counts 0x1 = 0 points.

I am surprised you might be confussed. You count ONLY for trumps ABOVE whatever the BID promisses. This does NOT depend on the partner's holding, and actually there is NO WAY it can depend ! Whatever PD holds, it's only HIM who knows it. You only know that:

1) you do have a fit (8 cards) and

2) you count supertrumps on YOUR promissed holding - this means +1 trump if you have 5 AND you play 4-card major and 0 if you play 5-card major. If, for example, you play 5 card major and you open with 6 while your PD has 5, then you count 1 (6-5) and he counts 2 (5-3). Multiplied by whatever hi's short suit is, like 2 if it's a singleton. You actually do NOT get any points for the singleton PER SE - it's the SUPERTRUMP that get's it, rather than the singleton itself.

Everything in Zar Points is simple and clear (I think :-)

Although ... I might be biased :-)
ZAR


OK, opener gets nothing for 5-3-3-2 when he had promised 5, but were he 6-3-2-2 he'd get 1 point. The special case of counting a supertrump with only an 8 card fit if there are at least 2 more trumps than cards in the shortest suit only applies when raising--this was the example you gave, but your text does not explicitly restrict the rule to that case--hence my question. It certainly makes sense that this additonal count would apply only to the short trump hand.

In any case the anomaly remains with Ruffing Power--in my example hand with five card majors opener counts 0 and responder counts 4, with with four card majors opener counts 1 and responder counts 2. I could devise other hands where the anomaly is larger (5-5-3-0 opener opposite 4-3-3-3 responder).

By comparions, with basic Zar fit points in the five card major case opener counts 0 and responder counts 3, while in the four card major case the opener counts 3 and the responder counts 0 for the same total.
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#6 User is offline   Zar 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 02:46

*** Mikestart wrote: OK, opener gets nothing for 5-3-3-2 when he had promised 5, but were he 6-3-2-2 he'd get 1 point. The special case of counting a supertrump with only an 8 card fit if there are at least 2 more trumps than cards in the shortest suit only applies when raising--this was the example you gave, but your text does not explicitly restrict the rule to that case--hence my question. It certainly makes sense that this additonal count would apply only to the short trump hand.
<

Yes. In all fairness, I have to admit I haven’t updated the write-up for more than an year already and there are a lot of valuable clarifications coming from discussion groups (including groups in languages like Finish, Romanian, etc. that I don’t know and get translated to me :-) Plus there are editorial remarks from authorities like Ron Klinger that I still haven’t completely reflected (I know it’s a shame).

>
In any case the anomaly remains with Ruffing Power--in my example hand with five card majors opener counts 0 and responder counts 4, with four card majors opener counts 1 and responder counts 2. I could devise other hands where the anomaly is larger (5-5-3-0 opener opposite 4-3-3-3 responder). By comparisons, with basic Zar fit points in the five card major case opener counts 0 and responder counts 3, while in the four card major case the opener counts 3 and the responder counts 0 for the same total... “But if my shape were 4-4-3-2 and I had 3 spades, I can't count 1 for the doubleton because my trumps are not two cards longer than my short suit.”
<

I came back and read it again (ad added the last quote from you previous post). I see the concern. The 2-cards difference was added after series of discussions to accommodate the trick-taking potential when you do NOT have a supertrump, but have a side shortage which can NOT be easily killed by the defenders via a trump lead – like 3 trumps with a side singleton. The difference of 2 is there to manage the tempo that the defenders have with the lead. There is NO supertrump point added actually. Consider that as being “on top” and independent of everything, so to say. I do continue making experiments to prove or disprove ideas (and several other people do it independently as volunteers for the cause) but some of them are hard to prove (for example the expert’s opinion that holding the Spades is worth 2 Zar Points rather than 1, etc.)

Cheers:

ZAR
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#7 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 15:11

Zar,

Thanks for the clarification of the two-card difference. I beleive your logic is correct.

This wasn't my real concern, I just needed correct understanding. Let me make clear exactly what troubles me.

Opener has 5-5-3-0 with 5 spades and responder has 4-3-3-3 (so no points for the eight trump will be at issue) with 4 spades.

In basic Zar Fit, playing 5 card majors opener counts 0 and responder counts 3, while with four card majors opener counts 3 and reponder counts 0--the total count of each hand shifts according to who knows about the ninth trump, but the total or both hands is stable.

But with Ruffing Power playing 5 card majors opener counts 0 and responder counts 0, while playing four card majors opener counts 3 and responder counts 0 for a 3 ZP =.6 trick discrepancy based on the bidding method rather than the cards.

Clearly with 4-3-3-3, your ninth trump is worth less than if you were 4-4-4-1, but it should be worth something--it increases the value of partner's five card suit (less prone to bad breaks, etc.) I don't have a good idea how to deal with it.

Of course maybe I could stick to basic Zar Fit, but for balanced hands the 3 points per supertrump seems a little high.
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#8 User is offline   Zar 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 15:57

*** Mikestar wrote: >Thanks for the clarification of the two-card difference. I beleive your logic is correct.
<

My pleasure, Mike.

>
Opener has 5-5-3-0 with 5 spades and responder has 4-3-3-3 (so no points for the eighth trump will be at issue) with 4 spades. In basic Zar Fit, playing 5 card majors opener counts 0 and responder counts 3, while with four card majors opener counts 3 and responder counts 0--the total count of each hand shifts according to who knows about the ninth trump, but the total or both hands is stable. But with Ruffing Power playing 5 card majors opener counts 0 and responder counts 0, while playing four card majors opener counts 3 and responder counts 0 for a 3 ZP =.6 trick discrepancy based on the bidding method rather than the cards.
<

I see – your point is well taken. Never seen the issue – thank you! The fact that you DO have 9 trumps is STILL valuable even if dummy doesn’t provide ruffing potential, simply because this 9th trump is in YOUR hands rather than in the opponents. Very true. And never taken into account before – thank you again. I’ll run some boards to determine the value – off the top of my head the supertrump with flat distribution would come to 1 Zar Point, but again – I’ll run the computations and I’ll let you know what it comes to.

>
Clearly with 4-3-3-3, your ninth trump is worth less than if you were 4-4-4-1, but it should be worth something--it increases the value of partner's five card suit (less prone to bad breaks, etc.) I don't have a good idea how to deal with it.
<

Indeed, as mentioned above.

>
Of course maybe I could stick to basic Zar Fit, but for balanced hands the 3 points per supertrump seems a little high.
<

3 points for a supertrump with a doubleton is also a bit high especially if you don’t have other controls in the suit (meaning you don’t have the tempo to develop the ruffing trick), but it is simpler to count +3 for a supertrump regardless (less "brain cramp" :-).

Thanx again, Mike:

ZAR
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#9 User is offline   tysen2k 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 17:05

Zar, on Apr 26 2004, 04:57 PM, said:

The fact that you DO have 9 trumps is STILL valuable even if dummy doesn’t provide ruffing potential, simply because this 9th trump is in YOUR hands rather than in the opponents. Very true. And never taken into account before – thank you again. I’ll run some boards to determine the value – off the top of my head the supertrump with flat distribution would come to 1 Zar Point, but again – I’ll run the computations and I’ll let you know what it comes to.

I was wondering this myself and decided to look into it.

When opener has 5+ spades, 4333 is worth 0.26 tricks more than 3433.

In comparison:
4432 is worth 0.37 more than 3442
4531 is worth 0.58 more than 3541
4630 is worth 0.63 more than 3640

I'm very surprised that there is so little difference between the singleton and the void case.

So if you're going to use Zar, it looks like the 9th trump is worth 1 point with 4333, 2 with a doubleton, and 3 with a singleton or a void.

Tysen
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#10 User is offline   Zar 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 17:24

*** Tysen wrote: So if you're going to use Zar, it looks like the 9th trump is worth 1 point with 4333, 2 with a doubleton, and 3 with a singleton or a void.
<

Sounds about what I suggested "of the top of my head", but as I mentioned, I'd run the calculation over the 140,000 Games in Major which I have for download on the site and see what the actual value would be ( certainly it will an "ugly" number that I'll round appropriately :-)

Cheers:

ZAR
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#11 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-April-27, 14:01

With regard to the very small difference Tysen found between a singleton and a void when comparing three card support to four card support, I wonder if the difference is wider when comparing four card support to five card support. I read somewhere that it isn't wise to give a void full value if you have less than 5 trumps--and to prefer a 5-3 fit to a 4-4 fit when you are 5-4-4-0. If this idea is valid, it could explain the surprise result.
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#12 User is offline   tysen2k 

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Posted 2004-April-27, 14:47

mikestar, on Apr 27 2004, 03:01 PM, said:

With regard to the very small difference Tysen found between a singleton and a void when comparing three card support to four card support, I wonder if the difference is wider when comparing four card support to five card support. I read somewhere that it isn't wise to give a void full value if you have less than 5 trumps--and to prefer a 5-3 fit to a 4-4 fit when you are 5-4-4-0. If this idea is valid, it could explain the surprise result.

Let's see what the data shows:

When partner has 5+ spades

5422 is worth 0.11 tricks more than 4522
5431 is worth 0.15 more than 4531
5440 is worth 0.34 more than 4540

So yes, the difference is more pronounced between the singleton and void cases when you have 5 support, but the overall value of the 10th trump is much less than the 9th. This seems low, but it's real data based on millions of hands. Now remember that these are tricks or points that we're adding to partner's valuation. Partner has shape that he's counting on too and so we can't add too many points or we'll start double-counting too much.

I also looked into the case where you have a 5440 hand and a choice between a 5-3 and a 4-4 fit. The 4-4 fit on average is better by 0.25 tricks.

Tysen
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#13 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-April-27, 15:24

Tysen,

So the singleton and void case sparate more but the singleton and doubleton cases come closer together? Interesting. I had been suspicious of the 5-3 vs 4-4 part of the advice.
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#14 User is offline   tysen2k 

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Posted 2004-April-28, 10:18

mikestar, on Apr 27 2004, 04:24 PM, said:

So the singleton and void case sparate more but the singleton and doubleton cases come closer together?

Let's not forget that the 5422 case has two doubletons. That might account for some of the closeness between the doubleton/singleton cases.

Tysen
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#15 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-April-28, 18:09

If only the partner with more trumps than promised can count the ZAR points, this seems somewhat unfair. Imagine partner opens 1 and you have 5 and weakish hand. Surely you are going to bid 4..but can't you use Zar fit points to double check if 4 might be too strong?

Ben
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#16 User is offline   tysen2k 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 10:54

inquiry, on Apr 28 2004, 07:09 PM, said:

If only the partner with more trumps than promised can count the ZAR points, this seems somewhat unfair. Imagine partner opens 1 and you have 5 and weakish hand. Surely you are going to bid 4..but can't you use Zar fit points to double check if 4 might be too strong?

Ben

A direct bid of 4 is more than "I think we can take 10 tricks." You might have a hand where you think you can only take 8 or 9, but it's a pre-sacrifice so that it's tougher for the opps to find their fit.

But an accurate evaluation method will predict how many tricks you are going to make. For example, if partner opens 1H, you expect to take about the same number of tricks with both of these hands:

x
Qxxxx
xxxxx
xx

vs.

Kxx
xxx
Kxx
KJxx

Zar is pretty close on this one, making them about the same number of points (20 vs. 21 if my math is correct) but I'm going to bid 4H with the first and 3H with the second even though Zar tells me 2H might be the limit with the first.

Tysen
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#17 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 17:44

Let's say I open with 1D with S- Axx H-xxx D AKxxx C-xx (27 ZP) and partner responds 1S showing 4.

If I choose to raise to 2S (I really don't want to bid 1NT with no fillers and both unbid suits wide open) what is my ZP count now, allowing for having 1 trump LESS than partner expects?

With Zar Fit Points would it be 24? (-3 to compensate for the +3 partner would count for five spades, mistakenly believeng he has the ninth trump)

What would be the correct total with Zar Ruffing Power?
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#18 User is offline   Zar 

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Posted 2004-April-30, 04:34

*** Ben wrote: If only the partner with more trumps than promised can count the ZAR points, this seems somewhat unfair. Imagine partner opens 1♥ and you have 5♥ and weakish hand. Surely you are going to bid 4♥..but can't you use Zar fit points to double check if 4♥ might be too strong?
<


Of course BOTH sides count points - I believe we have already been through this. If your PD opens 1S with 6 cards and you have 5 yourself, playing 5-card major HE counts 1 (5+1) and YOU count 2 (3+2). This way any duplication AND any missing is ruled out. I hoped this was a simple thing ...

ZAR
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#19 User is offline   Zar 

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Posted 2004-May-04, 02:56

*** Mikestar wrote: Let's say I open with 1D with S- Axx H-xxx D AKxxx C-xx (27 ZP) and partner responds 1S showing 4. If I choose to raise to 2S (I really don't want to bid 1NT with no fillers and both unbid suits wide open) what is my ZP count now, allowing for having 1 trump LESS than partner expects? With Zar Fit Points would it be 24? (-3 to compensate for the +3 partner would count for five spades, mistakenly believeng he has the ninth trump)
<

This reminds me Mike Lawrence's intial feeling that "Zar Points do not leave room for judgment" - that would've been nice, but unfortunatly impossible :-)

With a "sub-fit" like supporting a potentially 4-card suit with only 3 trumps you callculate the -3 for "misleading" the partner, but compensate with the already mentioned calculations of side shortness if you have it (void, singleton, with only 3 trumps). And still raise "on your own risk" so to say - Zar Points can only REDUCE the need for "vague" judgment but certaily cannot cover every single detail of the universe :-)

Cheers:

ZAR
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#20 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-May-05, 00:53

Zar,

OK--deduct 3 points for the missing trump, then count as if I had normal support. Looks like that leads to a very reasonable evaluation.
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