[Fluffy]

♠A8652
♥72
♦QJ62
♣KQ

Dealer east, vul NS

(3♥)-pass-(4♥)-double
(pass)-???

[zheddh]

What does 5S mean in this auction? Is it a general slam try(without heart control perhaps?)

[gwnn]

color me chicken 4.

[655321]

4♠

[Jlall]

Congratulate partner on his brave double with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx to get us to a vul game we would otherwise have missed.

[rhm]

Jlall, on Sep 29 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

Congratulate partner on his brave double with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx to get us to a vul game we would otherwise have missed.

Better to congratulate yourself for your braveness when partner instead turns up with

♠KQJx, ♥-,♦Axxx,♣AJxxx


I, a coward, prefer to bid and fight it out at 5♠, if my vulnerable partner, who was not in the pass-out seat, and really came in at the 4 level with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx opposite a hand who had already passed over 3♥.

Rainer Herrmann

[Jlall]

rhm, on Sep 29 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 29 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

Congratulate partner on his brave double with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx to get us to a vul game we would otherwise have missed.

Better to congratulate yourself for your braveness when partner instead turns up with

♠KQJx, ♥-,♦Axxx,♣AJxxx


I prefer to fight it out at 5♠, if necessary.

Rainer Herrmann

Partner has minimums way more than he has maximums!

[rhm]

Jlall, on Sep 29 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

Congratulate partner on his brave double with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx to get us to a vul game we would otherwise have missed.

Better to congratulate yourself for your braveness when partner instead turns up with

♠KQJx, ♥-,♦Axxx,♣AJxxx


I, a coward, prefer to bid and fight it out at 5♠, if my vulnerable partner, who was not in the pass-out seat, and really came in at the 4 level with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx opposite a hand who had already passed over 3♥.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

Jlall, on Sep 29 2009, 06:40 AM, said:

rhm, on Sep 29 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 29 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

Congratulate partner on his brave double with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx to get us to a vul game we would otherwise have missed.

Better to congratulate yourself for your braveness when partner instead turns up with

♠KQJx, ♥-,♦Axxx,♣AJxxx


I prefer to fight it out at 5♠, if necessary.

Rainer Herrmann

Partner has minimums way more than he has maximums!

The question is what a minimum double should look like at unfavorable vulnerability at the 4 level.
To me your hand looks like a normal minimum takeout double at the one level.
And if you consider your hand a minimum double at the 4 level, mine is certainly not a maximum and the range becomes extremely wide.
Catering for the absolute minimum in such a scenario will lead to far more missed slams than taking the middle ground with a slightly more optimistic view will lead to minus scores.

Rainer Herrmann

[pooltuna]

rhm, on Sep 29 2009, 07:00 AM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 29 2009, 06:40 AM, said:

rhm, on Sep 29 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 29 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

Congratulate partner on his brave double with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx to get us to a vul game we would otherwise have missed.

Better to congratulate yourself for your braveness when partner instead turns up with

♠KQJx, ♥-,♦Axxx,♣AJxxx


I prefer to fight it out at 5♠, if necessary.

Rainer Herrmann

Partner has minimums way more than he has maximums!

The question is what a minimum double should look like at unfavorable vulnerability at the 4 level.
To me your hand looks like a normal minimum takeout double at the one level.
And if you consider your hand a minimum double at the 4 level, mine is certainly not a maximum and the range becomes extremely wide.
Catering for the absolute minimum in such a scenario will lead to far more missed slams than taking the middle ground with a slightly more optimistic view will lead to minus scores.

Rainer Herrmann

Rainer

That is not a nut you are trying to crack it is a diamond! GL

[akhare]

Color me chicken -- 4♠.

[MFA]

5♠.
Denies a heart control but partner is allowed to pass with one. (5♥ would show a 5♠ bid with a heart control. At least that's how I'm used to play).

We will often have a slam, and it takes a careful construction to leave us in greater danger in 5♠ than an unlucky ruff or a very bad trump split. I'm surprised about the pessimism of some of the previous posters.

[Fluffy]

Partner held:

KQxxx
-
Axx
10xxxx

♣3-3 and ♦K onside meant that 6♠ was cold.

At the table I tried 5♠, LHO 6♥ and partner quickly doubled wich gatherer +300

[ochinko]

Given that there is 6♠ in the answers I was surprised not to see 7♠ as well.

I voted for 4 though.

[Vampyr]

Fluffy, on Sep 30 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

♣3-3 and ♦K onside meant that 6♠ was cold.

It also means that it is a slam you don't want to be in.

[pooltuna]

Vampyr, on Sep 30 2009, 03:56 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Sep 30 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

♣3-3 and ♦K onside meant that 6♠ was cold.

It also means that it is a slam you don't want to be in.

Maybe so. But it is not as bad as you might think. The ♦ finesse is more than 50% to work and if the Jack♣ falls in 4-2 breaks you are a cow in clover.

[nige1]

Jlall, on Sep 29 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

Congratulate partner on his brave double with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx to get us to a vul game we would otherwise have missed.

rhm, on Sep 29 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

Better to congratulate yourself for your braveness when partner instead turns up with ♠KQJx, ♥-,♦Axxx,♣AJxxx
I, a coward, prefer to bid and fight it out at 5♠, if my vulnerable partner, who was not in the pass-out seat, and really came in at the 4 level with KJxx x Kxxx Axxx opposite a hand who had already passed over 3♥.

JLall sensibly warns us against punishing partner for enterprise. Nevertheless, IMO, Rainer is right for the right reasons. Admittedly, you may get too high when partner pre-protects at the four-level, light, opposite a passed partner and at adverse vulnerability. But you would normally expect a fairly good hand. Fluffy's partner's actual hand would be a disappointment.

[jdonn]

Partner did very well to double, I congratulate him. Clearly with this partner you only want to bid 4♠. Obviously there are players opposite whom you should do more than that too.

[jdonn]

Vampyr, on Sep 30 2009, 03:56 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Sep 30 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

♣3-3 and ♦K onside meant that 6♠ was cold.

It also means that it is a slam you don't want to be in.

Thinking about it and to be fair, if partner merely had JTxxx of clubs instead of Txxxx you wouldn't need the 3-3 club break or the diamond finesse to make. The more I think about this hand the more I like bidding 5. Slam could easily make even if partner was stretching a bit like Axxx x xxx AJxxx plus whatever else you need to make a minimum double (though I won't reach that one.) I am intending it as a general invitation which also denies a heart control, not as a request to bid slam if he has a heart control.