[Poky]

1♥ 1♠ 2NT* 4♠
X# pass ??

* INV+ with 4+♥
Dbl = penalty
# Slow double

IMP. The line with spades is vulnerable, the other is not.

♠x
♥AKxx
♦xx
♣Q9xxxx

[aguahombre]

Pass. Apparently responder decided on the first round, that the hand was only worth an invite, not plus. Otherwise with the singleton spade, he would have bid 3S.

Now that opener wants to defend, how can responder think the hand belongs at the 5-level? Anything other than pass would be based on the UI. Opener did not have a forcing pass available.

Sure don't like 2NT used this way, and especially on this hand. 2C one-round force then 3H if available, or 4H in a pinch. Or, 3S slight overbid over 1S.

[campboy]

The question "is 5♥ an LA" would be harder

[bluejak]

I do think that these polls will be more use if the question is "What do you call?" without showing the BIT, even though we can often make an educated guess. Whether pass is an LA is better decided by such a poll.

Note this also applies to TDs who take polls: you are trying to find out the bridge judgement, so you poll without the BIT.

[FrancesHinden]

bluejak, on Sep 28 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

I do think that these polls will be more use if the question is "What do you call?" without showing the BIT, even though we can often make an educated guess. Whether pass is an LA is better decided by such a poll.

Note this also applies to TDs who take polls: you are trying to find out the bridge judgement, so you poll without the BIT.

It's more fun polling without giving the nature of the infraction. The pollees (certainly your pollees!) always know there's a ruling involved, and they always try and guess what it was. This one was either going to be a hesitation over 4S, or 2NT not alerted.

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on Sep 28 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

Sure don't like 2NT used this way, and especially on this hand.  2C one-round force then 3H if available, or 4H in a pinch.  Or, 3S slight overbid over 1S.

What's wrong with 2♠?

[aguahombre]

Vampyr, on Sep 28 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Sep 28 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

Sure don't like 2NT used this way, and especially on this hand.  2C one-round force then 3H if available, or 4H in a pinch.  Or, 3S slight overbid over 1S.

What's wrong with 2♠?

2s means the same to you and me that 2NT means to them, apparently. So I don't like it much better than the 2NT bid which occurred--mainly because it is random as to shape, and I would like to describe at least some feature of this hand.

[Trinidad]

aguahombre, on Sep 29 2009, 12:55 AM, said:

Vampyr, on Sep 28 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Sep 28 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

Sure don't like 2NT used this way, and especially on this hand.  2C one-round force then 3H if available, or 4H in a pinch.  Or, 3S slight overbid over 1S.

What's wrong with 2♠?

2s means the same to you and me that 2NT means to them, apparently. So I don't like it much better than the 2NT bid which occurred--mainly because it is random as to shape, and I would like to describe at least some feature of this hand.

Usually, pairs that use 2NT as a raise in competition also use the cue as a raise. The difference is either the strength of the hand or the amount of trump support, 3 vs 4.

Rik

[aguahombre]

apparently not them because if 2NT showed 4, there would be even less question about whether to remove the double.

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on Sep 29 2009, 03:20 AM, said:

apparently not them because if 2NT showed 4, there would be even less question about whether to remove the double.

2NT shows 4+.

[aguahombre]

in which case pass is the only call after partner doubles

[shintaro]

FrancesHinden, on Sep 28 2009, 04:06 PM, said:

bluejak, on Sep 28 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

I do think that these polls will be more use if the question is "What do you call?" without showing the BIT, even though we can often make an educated guess.  Whether pass is an LA is better decided by such a poll.

Note this also applies to TDs who take polls: you are trying to find out the bridge judgement, so you poll without the BIT.

It's more fun polling without giving the nature of the infraction. The pollees (certainly your pollees!) always know there's a ruling involved, and they always try and guess what it was. This one was either going to be a hesitation over 4S, or 2NT not alerted.

Frances do you not think that a TD polling tends to possibly sway the answers you get due to the fact you suggest ie they know something is amiss already

[aguahombre]

So, on the OP's poll, 2 of 27 chose other than pass. 7+%. I would venture that that number is 100% of the number of people who considered an action other than pass. What does that mean when determining LA?

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on Sep 29 2009, 04:05 PM, said:

So, on the OP's poll, 2 of 27 chose other than pass. 7+%. I would venture that that number is 100% of the number of people who considered an action other than pass. What does that mean when determining LA?

Don't forget that 25 people did not necessarily choose Pass; they merely said that it was a LA. Of course, different jurisdictions define LA in different ways; so not everyone will have the same definition.

[bluejak]

I certainly did not vote as to what I would do, because that is not what I was asked.

[PeterE]

After thinking more than 3 minutes about my (bidding) possibilities I suddenly recognized, that - independent of my final decision - the requirement of "pass" being an LA were more than fulfilled.

Vampyr, on Sep 29 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

Of course, different jurisdictions define LA in different ways; so not everyone will have the same definition.

The definition of LA is part of the Law, see Law 16 B1b. It is not open for different jurisdictions to define that (but they might interpret "significant proportion").

[Vampyr]

PeterE, on Sep 29 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

(but they might interpret "significant proportion").

Well, yes. The EBU have assigned percentages to this.

[bluejak]

The EBU is probably backtracking on its percentages - watch this space!