[MattieShoe]

In SAYC, double of 1NT is penalty (16-18 points or a runnable suit preferably with outside entries), though often partner will bid with a decent hand. I read somewhere that any double AFTER a penalty double is a penalty double. So...

1NT X P 2♣
2♦ X

Would you interpret that as a penalty double? If not, what exactly is a player showing with 2nd double?

I had a situation like this occur when I had 16-18 points and something like 3253 distribution. I doubled a second time because we didn't appear to have a major fit and my long suit would have had a bad split at best, and I figured because of that rule, a double would be interpreted as penalty. I think everybody was confused by my bidding Should I have just supported clubs? gone to NT?

If I remember right, the whole bidding sequence was something like this:
1NT (X) P (2♣)
2♦ (X) 2♠ (P)
3♠ (X) P (P)
P

They went down doubled but 3NT made for our side so we lost IMPs.

[helene_t]

Three things:

- Partner will not run with a decent hand. He runs if he is so weak that he thinks 1NT makes despite your 17+ points, and he has somewhere to go to. So he has a 5-card suit and less than say 4 points. With any hand without a 5-card suit he will pass, but also with any hand with more than say 4 points he will pass your double regardless of distribution.

- Is your second double t/o or penalty? I wouldn't be sure but I think that here, where partner has showed a 5-card suit, it is best to play it as penalty. Asking him to bid another suit would be strange, since what is he supposed to do with a 3325 hand, which is his most typical distribution?

- The rule that after a penalty double all doubles are penalty is simple, and it is a very good thing to have simple rules. That said, it isn't optimal in all situations. Suppose it goes
(1NT)-x-(2♣)-p
(p)-x
Here your most typical hand is (443)2 and it is a type of hand that needs to be able to do something, but the only sensible thing to do is to dbl for t/o. So that double should be t/o in my opinion.

[MattieShoe]

Second double was intended to be penalty.

Why would partner pass with decent hand? If he has 9+ points, we probably have game somewhere... ?

[helene_t]

MattieShoe, on Sep 22 2009, 04:24 PM, said:

Why would partner pass with decent hand?  If he has 9+ points, we probably have game somewhere... ?

Yeah but defending 1NT is a sure plus, and usually also a larger plus. Taking 9 tricks against 1NTx is better than taking 9 tricks in your own 3NT at favorable or equal vulnerability. And taking 8 or 10 tricks against 1NTx is always better than taking the same number of tricks in your own 3NT.

Besides, you need the bids of 2 of a suit for the very weak hands, so in order to invite or force to game, partner would have to start with 2NT or higher. That would make it awkward to find the right contract.

[MattieShoe]

Makes sense :-)

[phil_20686]

here on the side of the pond where weak nt's and penalty doubles are v common, i found that the most flexible agreement is to play that the first dble after 1n has been penalised is t/o and subsequent doubles are penalty.

so

1n x 2y x

1n x 2y p
p x

Are both t/o.

I agree with helene that its different if one of you has bid a suit, then it should normally revert to penalties.