[jocdelevat]

Hi everyone
I had the west hand and I criticize my partner in a polite way I hope that she should bid over with her hand and not let opps play the 5hx because her hand has no defense.
Now she came back with an answer from her professional bridge teacher which he said 2 things:
1. I should have not double. Do you agree with her teacher?
2. Any double over 2s is penalty. Do you agree with her teacher ?

We still bridge partners however we did feel to clear this problem.

best regards
jocdelevat
.

Scoring: MP

---

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  1♥
 4♣    4♥    5♣    Dbl
 Pass  5♥    Pass  Pass
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass
 

[quiddity]

Do you have an agreement about jump overcalls? The standard meaning of 4C is preemptive.

[nigel_k]

I would have bid 2♣ not 4♣ over 1♥. 4♣ is a preempt and suggests a weaker hand than what you have. If you preempt with AQx of opponent's suit plus a void it will always be difficult for partner to make the right choices.

Your double is for penalties but, assuming you have a more normal 4♣ bid, it is only a suggestion as you shouldn't preempt in the first place with a good defensive hand. On the actual hand, your double is ok. Partner certainly should not expect the contract to go down but might consider passing in case they can make six - conceding 1050 instead of 1430. However I would bid 6♣ with your partner's hand after the double.

[MattieShoe]

Were I your partner, I'd have assumed doubling 5♥ is penalty there. If you wanted 6♣, you could just bid it yourself.

As for where doubles change to penalty, I think that's based on partnership agreements -- no rule that spans the entirety of the bridge community. I think it's more complex than that anyway -- Is this partner's first chance to bid? Has he passed previously? Has your partnership bid any suits? How many suits have opponents bid? I think most doubles of non-game suit bids are some form of takeout. Typically double of 1NT is penalty unless one uses some NT defense convention that redefines it, and that's certainly below 2♠. I'd treat double of a 3-level preempt as a takeout, and that's above 2♠

I wouldn't have doubled 5♥. I'd WANT to, but I wouldn't. I'm guessing south is void in clubs, so zero tricks there. You're in the lead so your void probably isn't going to factor in. Depending on the location of the K♥, you might win 1 or 2 tricks.

[mike777]

jocdelevat, on Sep 21 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

Hi everyone
I had the west hand and I criticize my partner in a polite way I hope that she should bid over with her hand and not let opps play the 5hx because her hand has no defense.
Now she came back with an answer from her professional bridge teacher which he said 2 things:
1. I should have not double. Do you agree with her teacher?
2. Any double over 2s is penalty. Do you agree with her teacher ?

We still bridge partners however we did feel  to clear this problem.

best regards
jocdelevat
.


<!-- PARTNERSEW begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> East </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> All </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td>  </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AQ3 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> J62 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AQJ8432 </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> J9432 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> 4 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> T7 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> KT975 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- PARTNERSEW end -->

West  North East  South

 -     -     Pass  1♥
 4♣    4♥    5♣    Dbl
 Pass  5♥    Pass  Pass
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass
 

Great B/I post, thanks.

So many issues but for starters do not bid 4c.

I would chance 2c....



after:
(1h)=2c=(4h)=5c

now after:
(x)=p=(5h)=p
p=x?=p=?



I think this is a tough hand.

[the hog]

I would bid 2C, and I would probably double 5H. Partner should bid 5C, pass the double and not take the push to 6. If you don't let the opps make some doubled contracts, then you are not doubling enough.

Your double is certainly for penalties, by the way.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would have overcalled 2C as well, but since partner is a passed
hand 4C is no wrong, as long as both sides know, that the bid has
a certain tactial component to it.
You basically try to stop them to discover there spade fit.

Since 5C did not promise any defence, the double of 5H is a bit
questionable, quite often the Queen will be before the King, i.e.
even if partner has a trick you will only have 2 tricks, so I may pass
it out.
So my comment to #1 from her teacher is: "I basically agree".

And I would not have bid 6C over 5H, we pushed them one level up,
mission accomplished.

Regarding "every double above 2S is penalty", this is basically a
partnership agreement.
You have to decide how high you play neg. doubles, some play neg.
X up to 2S, some up to 3S (I would say the most common), some
up to 4H and others up to 7S.
In the end you will have more hands suitable for a neg. X than suitable
for a penalty, espesially a low level penalty, so moving the border up
makes sense.
If a neg. X occurson the 3 level or higher, the an making the neg. X has
to expect, that parner converts the double even without a trump stack
due to a lack of alternatives
=> You should try to avoid making a neg. at a high level with extreme
shortgage, see e.g. threads "Would Larry Cohen make a neg. X with a
void?", but sometimes you dont have anything better, so "trying to avoid"
does not mean "never make".
So my comment to #2 from her teacher is: "It depends".

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

Yes this is no 4 club bid, not even with tactical reasons. But to answer your questions:

Quote

1. I should have not double. Do you agree with her teacher?
2. Any double over 2s is penalty. Do you agree with her teacher ?

1. Yes. You may make 3 tricks if the heart finesse is right and a club cashes. Two big ifs. They bid game besides missing AQx in trump. I would credit them with all the outside stuff. So, if a club cash and if you make two trump tricks and if partner has a trick, you may beat them twice. Too many ifs to double.

2. This is plain silly. To simplify things you may agree that every double is penalty after you found a fit. But something like 1♦ (3♥) X is still take out and will always be.

[the hog]

P_Marlowe, on Sep 22 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

Hi,

I would have overcalled 2C as well, but since partner is a passed
hand 4C is no wrong, as long as both sides know, that the bid has
a certain tactial component to it.
You basically try to stop them to discover there spade fit.

Since 5C did not promise any defence, the double of 5H is a bit
questionable, quite often the Queen will be before the King, i.e.
even if partner has a trick you will only have 2 tricks, so I may pass
it out.
So my comment to #1 from her teacher is: "I basically agree".

And I would not have bid 6C over 5H, we pushed them one level up,
mission accomplished.

Regarding "every double above 2S is penalty", this is basically a
partnership agreement.
You have to decide how high you play neg. doubles, some play neg.
X up to 2S, some up to 3S (I would say the most common), some
up to 4H and others up to 7S.
In the end you will have more hands suitable for a neg. X than suitable
for a penalty, espesially a low level penalty, so moving the border up
makes sense.
If a neg. X occurson the 3 level or higher, the an making the neg. X has
to expect, that parner converts the double even without a trump stack
due to a lack of alternatives
=> You should try to avoid making a neg. at a high level with extreme
shortgage, see e.g. threads "Would Larry Cohen make a neg. X with a
void?", but sometimes you dont have anything better, so "trying to avoid"
does not mean "never make".
So my comment to #2 from her teacher is: "It depends".

With kind regards
Marlowe

Uwe, even if the K is over the Q, you will make them both.
Hint. Think of your lead!

[mcphee]

These hand types present problems for newer players because they are confusing pre-emptive hands and good hands. It is this 4C bid that created troubles. I would not choose to dble 5H because I have only 2 hoped for tricks and the second is not even a sure thing. As for 6C you are going at most 2 down for 500 and may escape for 1 off, on your birthday you may even make it.
Poor 4C bid for many reasons
ill judged dble

as for the second part, I do not know of very many who would suggest playing any dble over 2S as penalty. This would be a losing action in any competition above int. level.

[nige1]

I don't think 4♣ is terrible opposite a passed partner.
I think the X of 5♥ should show extra high playing strength including high cards (not necessarily any trump tricks. (If partner had been on lead it might, instead, ask for an unusual lead -- here spades)
I agree that partner should pull to 6♣.