[Cyberyeti]

Scoring: IMP

---

You're playing the following:

Acol with 3 weak 2s so 2C is your only strong bid.

2N is good 19-22

2C-2D-2N is 23-24

What do you open ? 1♣, 2N, 2♣ rebidding 3♣, 2♣ rebidding 2N

[ONEferBRID]

1C ... planning to reverse into 2H over 1S or 1NT
.........or make a jump-shift to 2H over 1D.

[Jlall]

2C then 2N is very straightforward.

You can easily miss a game by opening 1C and having it go all pass.

You will not get to show the strength of your hand very easily if you open 1C and reverse into 2H (if your next bid is 3N you could have an ace less).

You risk wrongsiding the hand hand by opening 1C and bidding 2H next as opposed to just bididng NT yourself.

If it is just a 3N or 4 of a major hand, you will do much better bidding 2C then 2N, giving away minimum information and getting to game as quickly as possible.

If it is a 6N hand you will also do better by just showing your points/a balanced hand so that partner knows your range. As said earlier 1C then 2H makes showing your tremendous values murky.

And what if partner pleasantly surprises you and bids 1H over 1C? Oops, 4H does not show a hand this good...because you should have opened 2C. And nothing else fits. You could easily miss a slam where 2C 2D 2N 3C 3H 3S (slam try in hearts) would make it easy to get there.

Admittedly 1C will work well when you belong in 5C or 6C or the 7 level. Oh well. Some very good and scientific minded players will routinely tell me how bad it is to open 2N with such prime values when I can so easily describe my hand and have a good auction with 1C 2H.

Maybe I am biased by all my friends being huge "bid NT whenever it's possible" type players, but this seems like the winning style to me at the table, and it seems like it can be backed up on paper too. You describe a balanced hand with 22-23 points by bidding 2C then 2N, and that is what you have as far as I'm concerned.

Standard bidding is designed on 1 level openings being limited, and hands bigger than that limit opening 2C. If you do not do so, you cannot show your hand ever. This can be fine with very strong 2 suiters since it will never go all pass, and because your goal will not be to describe but to control the auction and find out what partner has. You will also frequently face big competition when you have a hand like that. But with a hand like this you cannot control the auction as your hand isn't good enough. This is not that type of hand though.

[goodwintr]

Didn't the OP say 2C, then 2NT, is 23-24, not 22-23? There may be only a silly millimeter at stake, but doesn't that mean the hand is only a maximum 2NT opening bid (19-22 in the system set out by OP)? In fact, there are both good and bad features for opening 2NT (or 2C and rebidding 2NT): AJ doubleton is a big plus for notrump declaration, whereas Ax doubleton is a minus. The 5-card suit may be worth something extra, but it isn't a very strong suit. So, I would argue that opening 2NT is right in OP's system. He didn't ask what would be right in another system.

[Jlall]

Yes you are right, I can't read sorry. My above post still applies as I would upgrade it to 2C 2N. If you don't think it's worth an upgrade (lol?) then you should open 2N.

[Walddk]

goodwintr, on Sep 19 2009, 01:03 AM, said:

Didn't the OP say 2C, then 2NT, is 23-24, not 22-23?

Indeed, but it's worth more than 22. The Kaplan & Rubens Hand Evaluator (nice tool) says 23.7.

http://www.jeffgoldsmith.org/cgi-bin/knr.c...J+AKJ9+A8+AJ432

Aces do not get what they deserve on the 4321 scale.

Roland

[Fluffy]

My hand looks good for slam. I would never open 2NT wich is the most slam killer option I have.

Openign 2♣ at least puts me in a good possition if partner fails to bid 2♦.

1♣ is my style, but maybe this is too strong for that?. If partner passes 1♣ will we regret it?. Its easy to construct hands for partner passing 1♣ with 3NT being hopeless. But also easy where it is more than cold.

I am not afraid of playing 1♣, I will open it.

[MFA]

2♣ then 2NT. 1♣ could end the auction right there, and the bid won't help us that much really if we do get another chance.

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on Sep 18 2009, 05:40 PM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ AJ ♥ AKJ9 ♦ A8 ♣ AJ432

You're playing the following:

Acol with 3 weak 2s so 2C is your only strong bid.

2N is good 19-22

2C-2D-2N is 23-24

What do you open ? 1♣, 2N, 2♣ rebidding 3♣, 2♣ rebidding 2N

1c or 2c whatever pard prefers

I guess I would do 2c but I thought it close.

[pooltuna]

Jlall, on Sep 18 2009, 06:06 PM, said:

Yes you are right, I can't read sorry. My above post still applies as I would upgrade it to 2C 2N. If you don't think it's worth an upgrade (lol?) then you should open 2N.

I would rather show 23 than maybe 19

[effervesce]

Definitely 2♣ rebidding 2NT for me-much too good for a 2NT opener. 4 aces, a 5 card suit.... what more do you want?

[Cyberyeti]

Well the problem if you open 1♣ is what do you do next when partner bids 1♥. Get excited sure, but do you have methods that are going to let you do something intelligent. We do, the reason for the good 19 bottom of the 2N range is that we play a 15-poor 19 1N rebid so 1♣-1♥-2N is GF and unbalanced with a 3♣ relay to establish hand type.

That said, I didn't fancy playing in 1C opposite say xxxx, Q109x, xxxx, x where I can make 4H in my sleep most of the time and could struggle to make 1♣.

So I opened 2♣ and rebid 2N as I felt this was 23 points of anybody's money.

Partner bid 3♦ transfer.

Second decision:

We play 4C as a good 5 card ♣ suit (2 of top 3) and three card heart support Qxx or better, 3N as good hand with 4 hearts, and 4♥ as a bad hand with 4 hearts.

[Jlall]

Cyberyeti, on Sep 19 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

We play 4C as a good 5 card ♣ suit (2 of top 3) and three card heart support Qxx or better, 3N as good hand with 4 hearts, and 4♥ as a bad hand with 4 hearts.

3N obv

[Fluffy]

yeah good hand, this is the 4 aces and a side 5 card suit remember?

[Cyberyeti]

Jlall, on Sep 19 2009, 03:36 AM, said:

Cyberyeti, on Sep 19 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

We play 4C as a good 5 card ♣ suit (2 of top 3) and three card heart support Qxx or better, 3N as good hand with 4 hearts, and 4♥ as a bad hand with 4 hearts.

3N obv

3N is probably technically correct, but I bid 4H for the simple reason that a spade lead through my AJ might be undesirable. We don't play retransfers over 3N and there are lots of holdings where a lead of anything other than a trump round to my hand might be beneficial, even if pard had S 10xx, a spade lead would allow me to park my diamond loser for example.

Anyway, partner bid 4♠ keycard, I showed 2 or 5 without the Q♥, partner should have signed off in 5♥ and I without a K to cue but with 5 aces would just bid 6♥. In fact he just bid 6 directly with Kxx, Q8765, Qxxx, x having acknowledged that we might well make 7.

K♣ was led, I took the A, RHO showing an odd number, ruffed a ♣, ♥ to the A LHO showing out, ♣ ruff, ♦ to the A, ♣ ruffed high, finesse 9♥ 12 tricks.

Had I been in 7 I'd have made it as the QS was onside and I'd have been forced to take the finesse.

At the other table oppos opened a 20-22 2N and subsided in 4♥ via the auction 2N-3♦-3♥-3N-4♥. Our man with 10987, void, K10954, KQ105 decided that the oppos who were good enough he felt to break a transfer with 4 card support had arrived in a 5-3 fit with trumps 5-0 doubled and this made the same 12 tricks.

[pooltuna]

Jlall, on Sep 19 2009, 03:36 AM, said:

Cyberyeti, on Sep 19 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

We play 4C as a good 5 card ♣ suit (2 of top 3) and three card heart support Qxx or better, 3N as good hand with 4 hearts, and 4♥ as a bad hand with 4 hearts.

3N obv

when you got the right tool it is time to trot it out.

[skjaeran]

2♣..2NT for me, clear upgrade.
Prefer offshape strong NT over the alternatives.

[gnasher]

You're have reached slam after a 2NT opening too, wouldn't you? After 2NT-2♦;3♥-3NT, responder is worth 4♣. After that, opener wouldn't stop short of slam.

[Cyberyeti]

gnasher, on Sep 19 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

You're have reached slam after a 2NT opening too, wouldn't you? After 2NT-2♦;3♥-3NT, responder is worth 4♣. After that, opener wouldn't stop short of slam.

Depends, if responder does bid 4♣ then yes, but I wouldn't crime him too much for just bidding 4♥.

[Jlall]

Cyberyeti, on Sep 19 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

gnasher, on Sep 19 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

You're have reached slam after a 2NT opening too, wouldn't you?  After 2NT-2♦;3♥-3NT, responder is worth 4♣.  After that, opener wouldn't stop short of slam.

Depends, if responder does bid 4♣ then yes, but I wouldn't crime him too much for just bidding 4♥.

Your partner bid keycard when you showed the minimum with 4 trumps, but if you had shown extras with 4 trumps you think he would have signed off? lol?