[fromageGB]

Many thanks for all the comments. Different descriptions it will be !

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Sep 17 2009, 09:13 PM, said:

Yes so why does this imply a certain range? All 2 level jumps have constructive elements and preemptive elements.

It doesn't. As I said in my earlier post, the word "preemptive" describes the objective of the bid, without specifying any particular strength.

Hence it is wrong to say:

"By definition, any bid that takes up space is preemptive."

"... 'preemptive' describes the effect of the bid on partner and the opponents"

"A jump overcall is always preemptive."

However, I wouldn't expect every opponent to understand this distinction, so I usually say "preemptive in intent, but can have anything up to a minimum opening bid".

[Codo]

If your director had protested against a TD descission in your favour, I had called it a case without merrit.

How much understanding of the game is needed to know that all opening bids in 3. seat can vary for tactical reasons? I wuld explain this to newbies and beginners, but I would expect a director to know this.

[dlbalt]

fromageGB, on Sep 16 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

The other night at the ftf club my partner passed, RHO bid a natural 1♣, and I bid 2♥.  Questions, explained as weak jump overcall, no follow up questions.  I had a good 6 card heart suit and a 13 count including a singleton ♣K. Ultimate contract by them went off, and declarer - who was the director for the night - strongly objected to my bid as it caused her to misplay the hand.

Am I entitled to discount a singleton K in the opposition suit, giving a working 10 count, and overcalling a WJO?  If asked, my partner would explain further that he would expect a 6 to 10 count and a 6 card suit.  Should I be penalised?

What is the normal definition of a WJO?

Am I missing something, or doesn't there need to be a partnership agreement before an opponent has a basis to object to your bid?

Was there a no psyche rule in effect? Was your partner a regular partner, who might be used to over-strength weak jump overcalls?

If not, and your (possibly) abnormal weak jump forces the opponent to misplay the hand, that's the fortunes of the game.

[Mbodell]

gnasher, on Sep 18 2009, 01:59 AM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 17 2009, 09:13 PM, said:

Yes so why does this imply a certain range? All 2 level jumps have constructive elements and preemptive elements.

It doesn't. As I said in my earlier post, the word "preemptive" describes the objective of the bid, without specifying any particular strength.

Right. Opposite a passed hand my usual description is "preemptive and wide ranging".

It certainly wouldn't surprise me to see my partner bidding P-1♦-2♠ on more than "opening" points or almost no points (depending on vulnerability r/w no points would be surprising and w/r greater than opening would be surprising).

[Jlall]

I still don't get it, would you say that someone who had a range of 5-10 would be giving misinformation if they said "preemptive" to their weak jump overcall? If not, and if someone who has a 2-13 range also says preemptive, then saying preemptive does not give any information to the person asking. If they are smart they will just ask for clarification, if not they will assume the standard meaning that preemptive = weak jump overcall and not ask for clarification. Seems like it's just better to tell them something about your range.

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Sep 18 2009, 04:59 AM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 17 2009, 09:13 PM, said:

Yes so why does this imply a certain range? All 2 level jumps have constructive elements and preemptive elements.

It doesn't. As I said in my earlier post, the word "preemptive" describes the objective of the bid, without specifying any particular strength.

Ok, so I think if someone asks and you say preemptive you are not telling them anything about the types of hands you are preempting on. This seems against the spirit of full disclosure since you likely know what types of hands your partner preempts on.

Not saying you are being unethical or anything, I just think this is bad disclosure. Obviously practical considerations exist and you can never say EVERYTHING about a bid that you might know when it comes to something like preempting style, but I think a general range and if it is often a 5 card suit is not too much info.

[benlessard]

When asked about passed hand preempt I say from very weak to game is unlikely facing a passed hand.

[aguahombre]

Everyone has a different way of explaining "I don't know." I think BenL comes closest to what the bid means to the person who is asked the question. We do seem to agree that the word "preemptive" is a nothing word and might be misleading to those not well versed in the subtleties of the language.

[barmar]

I think this comes down to bridge logic. A preemptive bid is basically the opposite of a constructive bid. Constructive bids invite partner to keep the auction going if he has useful values; when you make a 1-level opening, partner is expected to respond with 6 HCP or so.

Preemptive bids, then, are the other case -- unless partner has a really good hand, he's not expected to go exploring (he might raise the preempt, though).

Once partner is a passed hand, he's supposedly denied this "really good hand" and even an ordinary opening hand. Bridge logic then implies that you can preempt more widely, since you're not worried about missing game. Any hand that wouldn't accept an invitation can be opened with a preempt, since that's the most partner can have.

Is this a matter of partnership agreement, or general bridge knowledge? I can't recall ever discussing this with partners, but as I gained more experience in the game I learned to rely less on rigid rules and more on judgement. I encountered people bidding this way (both partners, opponents, and experts that I've kibbitzed), learned the principles behind it, and adopted them into my style. Maybe you really should disclose if you DON'T follow these principles.

[Phil]

All this business about the call being preemptive is double talk to me. The convention card calls a WJO either weak, intermediate or strong.

Of course its preemptive, it uses up space. NSS.

[Jlall]

barmar, on Sep 18 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

Maybe you really should disclose if you DON'T follow these principles.

Yeah I was thinking this when I read your post, but it seems backwards. Honestly if a good opp told me preemptive (assuming I'm a good player) I'd have no problem with it, but I think against bad opps you should go out of your way to say it.

[Free]

- With passed partner "anything" goes. Ranges are larger, you can hold a minimum opening, you can have extra trash, whatever. It's a pressure bid situation, this is pure bridge logic...

- You downgraded your hand honestly because you held a stiff K, for you this hand was worth 10HCP. If you'd have Kx there's no reason to downgrade and you'd probably have bid 1♥ (I'd still prefer 2♥ but ok). This is hand evaluation.

So I don't think you should be penalized.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Sep 19 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

Ok, so I think if someone asks and you say preemptive you are not telling them anything about the types of hands you are preempting on. This seems against the spirit of full disclosure since you likely know what types of hands your partner preempts on.

Not saying you are being unethical or anything, I just think this is bad disclosure. Obviously practical considerations exist and you can never say EVERYTHING about a bid that you might know when it comes to something like preempting style, but I think a general range and if it is often a 5 card suit is not too much info.

Yes, I agree. I would never describe a jump overcall merely as "preemptive". In the part of my previous post that you didn't quote, I said that I usually say "preemptive in intent, but can have anything up to a minimum opening bid". That is, I describe both partner's objective and his range.

[gwnn]

How about using a bridge dictionary?

The Bridge World Glossary said:

Preemptive
(1) (adjective) intended to hinder the enemy through the removal of bidding space from the auction;
(2) (noun) a preemptive bid, or a bid that acts preemptively no matter how intended.

[aguahombre]

gwnn, on Sep 19 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

How about using a bridge dictionary?

The Bridge World Glossary said:

Preemptive
(1) (adjective) intended to hinder the enemy through the removal of bidding space from the auction;
(2) (noun) a preemptive bid, or a bid that acts preemptively no matter how intended.

bingo

[gordontd]

Phil, on Sep 19 2009, 04:02 AM, said:

The convention card calls a WJO either weak, intermediate or strong.

Err, no

[gordontd]

helene_t, on Sep 17 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

A jump overcall is always preemptive.

Strong jump overcalls are not pre-emptive, any more than strong-two opening bids are pre-emptive.

[gnasher]

gwnn, on Sep 19 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

How about using a bridge dictionary?

The Bridge World Glossary said:

Preemptive
(1) (adjective) intended to hinder the enemy through the removal of bidding space from the auction;
(2) (noun) a preemptive bid, or a bid that acts preemptively no matter how intended.

I don't know who wrote that, but I bet it wasn't Jeff Rubens. Who thinks that "preemptive" is a noun?

Anyway, taking that dictionary entry at face value, if you say "2S is preemptive", you're using it as an adjective, so only the first definition applies. If you wanted to use the second sense, you'd have to write that "2S is a preemptive."

All in all, this confirms that it's best not to use the word without further qualification.

[gwnn]

yes I was hoping you wouldn't notice the "noun" part