[Double !]

Scoring format = MBC imp pairs
No one vulnerable

You hold, I guess, as dealer (irrelevant)

♠: A K J 3
♥: A
♦: A
♣: Q J 7 6 5 4 3

What is your decision in terms of opening bid? Do you bid 1♣, 2♣, or something else?
Playing BBO adv 2/1, Sayc, or Acol with whatever gadgets you prefer. Nothing esoteric, please & not playing any strong club or diamond system. (Actually, Benjamin 2-bids might or might not be helpful on this hand). Please don't look at responder's hand until you've decided on your opening bid and follow-up rebids.

Decision #1: If you decide to bid 1♣ (as I did), partner will respond 1♠. Wow. (my imitation of Ben Stein) What is your bidding plan now for this hand.

Decision #2: If you decide to open 2♣, partner may respond 2♦ (whether or not you play a response of 2♥ as a dbl negative, or partner might respond 2♠, depending on partnership criteria for a positive response. If partner responds 2♦ and you decide to rebid 3♣, partner will likely bid 3♠. How would you continue at this point?

How would you continue should partner initially respond 2♠?

(BTW: not advising this, but wondering what 2C - 2D - 4C would mean to people?)
Thank y'all in advance for your responses to this post. Enjoy!



Partner's hand:

♠: Q 9 8 7 5
♥: Q 4 3
♦: 7 5 3 2
♣: A


We had what I thought was a sensible (my opinion, only) albeit creative auction to get to 6S, making 7.
Is there a sensible way to bid to a reasonable 7 Spade contract? What tools do you have for asking about responder's club holding without committing the hand to the 6-level prematurely?


DHL

[aguahombre]

After 1C 1s, I can figure out how to find out about the ace of clubs and the queen of spades, but not the fifth spade and the stiff....oh, well.....happy to have gotten to 6S.

0314, blast blackwood over 1S, at imp scoring pass a 5C response

[Double !]

Suppose partner doesn't have the ace of clubs but has, instead, the king of clubs along with the queen of spades (or has a small stiff club and additional trump length)? Blasting into 4NT doesn't help much in such a case.

DHL

[pooltuna]

you are 55% to have good play if partner has 2 or 3 ♣s so 1♣-1♠; 6♠ is a plausible if unscientific auction.

[aguahombre]

I didnt say it was a good plan, just what I would probably do.

[karlson]

It seems right to force partner into a club cue, so I would bid 3♥ splinter over 1♠. Then 4♦ if he signs off.

[Double !]

pooltuna, on Aug 10 2009, 02:24 PM, said:

you are 55% to have good play if partner has 2 or 3 ♣s so 1♣-1♠; 6♠ is a plausible if unscientific auction.

How does one avoid 2 club losers if responder has xx or xxx of clubs?

HL

[Double !]

karlson, on Aug 10 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

It seems right to force partner into a club cue, so I would bid 3♥ splinter over 1♠. Then 4♦ if he signs off.

Wouldn't you first like to know more regarding how many spades responder has?

DHL

[peachy]

Double !, on Aug 10 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

karlson, on Aug 10 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

It seems right to force partner into a club cue, so I would bid 3♥ splinter over 1♠. Then 4♦ if he signs off.

Wouldn't you first like to know more regarding how many spades responder has?

DHL

Double !, why don't you let the discussion flow? You posted a problem, others respond to it.

[ONEferBRID]

1C - 1S
4C!* - 4NT ( 6 Ace RKC , Sp & Cl; 03 or 14 etc. )
5D - 6S
( Responder envisions 2 red aces and 10 tricks in the black suits
or 1 red Ace, shortness in the other red suit, and 11 tricks in the blacks)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* The systemic convention with no name:
4C! = 4s/6+c, ergo shortness in one or both of the reds;
hcp normally concentrated in the 2 suits;
strong enough( ~ 19 hcp) to force game opposite a minimum Response.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Responder "does the math" and figures Opener must have
something like:
A K x x
A x
x
K Q J x x x

or
K J x x
A x
A
K Q T x x x

[Echognome]

There is no good bid to describe this hand with standard methods after a 1♣ - 1♠ start. In addition, what I believe is "standard" is probably not standard for many people.

Using what I believe most of my partners would play, I would start with 3♦ splinter and then follow with 4♦, trying to show that I'm missing a club control for partner.

With the actual hand, partner will show his ♣ control and we will explore grand. Hard to say we'd get there, given the bias of knowing both hands.

Playing with Phil opposite, we have a gadget (which isn't perfect either) and I would use that, bidding 2NT (strong 4-card raise, usually 17-19 bal, but could be unbalanced). Over that partner responds artificially in steps (min, no shortage, LMH shortage) and we cuebid from there. Given partner's actual hand, he would show extras and no shortage and we would go from there. (we generally do not show shortage with a stiff A)

[rd6789]

I cant see this as a 2♣ opener.

I think in every system I have played 1♣ - 1♠ - 4♣ shows a 4xx6 shape with very good clubs and very good spades. So that is a good place to start. Over partners 4♠ you can go on with 5♦ now if partner has xx of clubs he should sign off but with anything else I expect him to bid 6 and may look for 7

[pooltuna]

Double !, on Aug 10 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

pooltuna, on Aug 10 2009, 02:24 PM, said:

you are 55% to have good play if partner has 2 or 3 ♣s so 1♣-1♠; 6♠ is a plausible if unscientific auction.

How does one avoid 2 club losers if responder has xx or xxx of clubs?

HL

you don't that is why you are only at 55% to have good play. 55% is the odds partner has the A or K of clubs

[ONEferBRID]

My previous post may be wishful thinking on the part of Responder to go 4NT ( 6 Ace ).

Opener may well go with the systemic 4C! rebid ( showing a 4s/6c ) with a less stellar holding:

♠: A K J 3
♥: K x
♦: x
♣: K Q J 7 6 5

[ONEferBRID]

Double !, on Aug 10 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

Scoring format = MBC imp pairs
No one vulnerable

You hold, I guess, as dealer (irrelevant)

♠:  A K J 3
♥:  A         
♦:  A           
♣:  Q J 7 6 5 4 3   

Partner's hand:

♠:  Q 9 8 7 5 
♥:  Q 4 3 
♦:  7 5 3 2   
♣:  A           


  What tools do you have for asking about responder's club holding without committing the hand to the 6-level prematurely?


DHL

There's one set of "tools" that would give you info about Cl Ctrls.
Here is a priority list that was given to me awhile back for RKC:

"Which Suit Is Trump"

C. If no suit has been supported, the key suit is:
* 1. The strong 2C bidder's suit.
2. The strong jump shifter's suit.
3. The jump rebidder's suit.
4. The last bid suit.

2C - 2D!
3C - 3S
4NT*( RKC for Cl )
. . . . - 5D ( 1 key )
6S

[agumperz]

Interesting problem. The hand is well-suited for a scientific bidding approach. If there are two club losers, they are not going anywhere so an unscientific jump to 6S has no chance to score up an unmakable slam on a bad lead. Further, 6C might be a far superior slam, facing something like:

xxxx
KQx
xxx
Kxx

So I would reject the leap to 6S as a poor choice.

I'd start with 1C planning to get both my suits in via a strong JS to 2S. When partner responds 1S, unfortunately, its no longer possible to show a hand this strong. However, at least we can start with a descriptive forcing spade raise of 4C.

Auction 1
1C -- 1S
4C! -- 4S
5S! -- 7S

4C = Forcing spade raise with long clubs, normally 6-4 in the blacks

5S = a demand to bid slam if responder controls clubs.

7S = 1st and second club control and Q-fifth of trump. What else can partner need?

Over 4C responder should recognize that he has a fine hand for slam purposes, but a 5C cuebid would be too rich. Opener might hold: AKJx, x Kx, KQJTxx.

Opener will continue with 5S which show first round control of both reds and excellent trumps. This is a demand to bid slam if responder can control clubs. Holding the 5th spade plus first and second round club control responder can bid the grand.

Here is an alternative auction starting with 2C:
Auction 2
2C -- 2D
3C -- 3S
5S! -- 7S

5S = bid slam with a club control


Either auction would get you to a marginal slam opposite:
xxxxx
Kxx
KQxx
x

But I think the odds favor the aggressive 5S bid.


Andrew

[vincit]

As you asked for a BBO compliant bid I would open 1C as there is no chance it be passed out (but there is a point opening 2D in the French system which is GF vs 2C which show a strong hand Acol type)

If I hear 1S I have no problem I would simply rebid 3NT which indicates four trumps with a hand rich in control and is a sollicitation to start Q-bidding the italian way indeed it is not standard just a personnal treatment, 3NT is the creative way because 4C would indicate in my views a 4S6C in a limited hand as the splinters in 4D/4H with a 5431/4441 shape a void is not excluded (you would just bid again your shortness)

So 3NT just indicates a hand rich in controls

1C 1S
3NT 4C (Shows control in C )
4D 4S
4NT ....

Now having tools to spot AC + SQ you can reach 7S easily

After an opening of 2C and 2D my understanding is that a rebid of 4C/4D shows a major two suiters 55/65 with three losers

Otherwise

2C 2D
3C 3S
4D (Q-bid) either agreeing S as trump or waiting
4S
6S 7S (because of the CA and SQ)

[vincit]

Just for your info the hand is extremely easy in the French standard system

2D 3C (Ace of club)
4C 4S (suit)
4NT (For K and Q) ....

or

2D 2S (one Ace unspecified)
3C 3S
4D 4S
4NT (For K and Q)

[Flameous]

1♣ - 1♠ -
4♣ - 4♠ -
4NT - 5♣ -
6♠ - 7♠

Nat - Nat
(3)46(7) in blacks, main focus on clubs - No red cue, no good club support, so usually 5♠
I have red suits covered, 6 keycard 1403 - Just 1 of six
Seems enough with a club loser and not sure about trump Q - No red suit losers, no club losers and partner chose ♠s as trump instead of clubs, so probably no ♠ losers either.

[ONEferBRID]

Andrew.....
I thought "normally" that 5S! in the following auction is:
- - a demand to bid slam if responder controls SPADES ( not clubs ).

1C -- 1S
4C! -- 4S
5S! -- 7S

I was wondering if 5C! instead would/should be used to ask about Cl Ctrls in this special systemic auction ?

- - Don - -