[jillybean]

Cascade, on Aug 16 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

Not impossible but partner has made a serious error signing off with those cards.

This I can agree with

[nigel_k]

4NT. Good problem.

I play 4♣ as any hand worth a raise to game that has club shortage so partner will certainly sign off with AQxxx xx xxx xxx.

This hand has four unattractive approaches, which are:
1) splinter and pass the signoff
2) splinter and bid again
3) open 2♣
4) try to get cute with 3♦

I can live with any of these, but probably 4 is better than 2 because you aren't involving partner either way and 4 gets you more information and also brings the ♦K into the keycard responses if partner raises.

[Fluffy]

I think most posters who pass 4 spades will disagree with my sing off to 4 spades, I had

♠Q10xx
♥xx
♦xxx
♣AKQx

If I at least did sing off without breaking tempo partner would had had a chance to move forward.

[jillybean]

5♣ is a tough call, what else can you do.

[pooltuna]

helene_t, on Aug 16 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

Pass.

Generally I am agreement with passing 4♠ but this hand may be an exception. Can you realistically expect partner to bid on with

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or

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or

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[Cascade]

pooltuna, on Aug 17 2009, 09:01 AM, said:

helene_t, on Aug 16 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

Pass.

Generally I am agreement with passing 4♠ but this hand may be an exception. Can you realistically expect partner to bid on with

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Tough sometimes partner will have a club void and this hand will be poor.

Quote

or

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Very tempting the extra spades are extra tricks.

[Free]

Fluffy, on Aug 16 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

I think most posters who pass 4 spades will disagree with my sing off to 4 spades, I had

♠Q10xx
♥xx
♦xxx
♣AKQx

If I at least did sing off without breaking tempo partner would had had a chance to move forward.

4♠ with this? And I'm the one who got less crazy

(I think I'd advance with the opener's hand because it's very offensive and has extra strength)

[Codo]

I had not passed 4♠. As always this is a matter of style.
And I had not bid 4♠.

[rd6789]

Free, on Aug 17 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 16 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

I think most posters who pass 4 spades will disagree with my sing off to 4 spades, I had

♠Q10xx
♥xx
♦xxx
♣AKQx

If I at least did sing off without breaking tempo partner would had had a chance to move forward.

4♠ with this? And I'm the one who got less crazy

(I think I'd advance with the opener's hand because it's very offensive and has extra strength)

how can you advance without anything in ♦ or ♥ ? This is clear to bid 4♠ - but whne partner moves on you can bid 6

[jillybean]

Codo, on Aug 17 2009, 02:18 AM, said:

I had not passed 4♠. As always this is a matter of style.
And I had not bid 4♠.

As opener what do you bid other than 4♠? Im still not sure how you get there unless responder bids on.

[ArtK78]

Fluffy, on Aug 16 2009, 03:54 PM, said:

I think most posters who pass 4 spades will disagree with my sing off to 4 spades, I had

♠Q10xx
♥xx
♦xxx
♣AKQx

If I at least did sing off without breaking tempo partner would had had a chance to move forward.

Yes, I disagree with the 4♠ signoff on these cards.

I would have passed the signoff of 4♠ on the big hand. Responder must be aware that the minimum for his response of 1♠ could contain a suit of 4 small cards and no aces. For example:

xxxx
xx
Kxx
KQJx

This is far more than a minimum response to a 1♥ opening bid, but becomes almost worthless after the 4♣ rebid by partner.

The ♣A is a useful card. And the ♣KQ along with the ♣A are still tricks, so they might not be useless. For example, suppose partner has this hand, which is not good enough to bid 4♣ (in my opinion):

KJxx
AKxxx
Axx
x

6♠ has reasonable play opposite this hand.

The QTxx of spades, while not a great holding, is far above minimum.

I would bid 5♣ on the responder's hand. If responder cannot make a forward going move on his hand, opener is really in a difficult position. Even the 4 level might be hazardous with a trump suit of xxxx facing KJxx with a club loser off the top. Opener must respect responder's signoff.

[Cascade]

rd6789, on Aug 18 2009, 01:25 AM, said:

Free, on Aug 17 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 16 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

I think most posters who pass 4 spades will disagree with my sing off to 4 spades, I had

♠Q10xx
♥xx
♦xxx
♣AKQx

If I at least did sing off without breaking tempo partner would had had a chance to move forward.

4♠ with this? And I'm the one who got less crazy

(I think I'd advance with the opener's hand because it's very offensive and has extra strength)

how can you advance without anything in ♦ or ♥ ? This is clear to bid 4♠ - but whne partner moves on you can bid 6

With 5♣ then partner will know that you have no big cards in the red suits.

The clubs are possible although not guaranteed useful pitches.

4♠ seems a little pessimistic with 11 HCP opposite a game force even if the values are dubious rather than guaranteed.

[Fluffy]

For me at least 5♣ would be somethig like

AQxx
Qxx
Qx
xxxx

[Mbodell]

What about keycard with the QTxx and AKQx hand? I mean you know partner has to have a very good hand to force to the 4 level opposite 6 points with basically nothing in clubs. While it is possible that opener has something like AKJx AKQJx Qxx x and you lose 2 quick diamonds (or even three making 5♣ not safe necessarily), I'd think keycard followed by 6♠ when you find you are missing one key card would be ok. I don't love it, but I think I might like it better than 4♠ or 5♣. One other thing I might try would be 4♦. Partner is unlikely to massively misevaluate after a 4♦ cue (the way he might after a 4♥ cue), and my cue might help opponents not lead diamonds and keeps the auction low. But at the table I probably bid 4nt/4♣.

[ArtK78]

Mbodell, on Aug 17 2009, 07:32 PM, said:

What about keycard with the QTxx and AKQx hand? I mean you know partner has to have a very good hand to force to the 4 level opposite 6 points with basically nothing in clubs. While it is possible that opener has something like AKJx AKQJx Qxx x and you lose 2 quick diamonds (or even three making 5♣ not safe necessarily), I'd think keycard followed by 6♠ when you find you are missing one key card would be ok. I don't love it, but I think I might like it better than 4♠ or 5♣. One other thing I might try would be 4♦. Partner is unlikely to massively misevaluate after a 4♦ cue (the way he might after a 4♥ cue), and my cue might help opponents not lead diamonds and keeps the auction low. But at the table I probably bid 4nt/4♣.

How would the answer to key card help you? Sure, if only one were missing, you MIGHT have a slam. But you don't know that for a fact with two suits wide open.

And if there are NO key cards missing, how would you know if a grand slam was making? Would you really make a grand slam try by making a further ask on these cards to confirm that all the key cards are held (assuming that a further ask confirms that all of the key cards are held)?

This hand is totally unsuitable for a key card ask. A simple 5♣ call conveys all of the information that you need to convey.

[mike777]

Fluffy, on Aug 16 2009, 10:19 AM, said:

♠KJ92
♥AKQ1063
♦AQ
♣3

Nobody bul MPs, North dealer

pass-1♥
1♠-4♣
4♠

tough one I pass.


I miss alot of slams at MP.


side note I open this one an easy 2clubs...4 loser hand with long major and lots of controls...



p=2c=2d(random postive)
2h=2s
4c(splinter)=etc....

or


p=2c
2d=2h
2n=3s
?

[aguahombre]

a 2C opening would not be helpful on the hands where responder has four spades.

Apparently the idea about serious 4-6 (4C) and non-serious (4D) rebids after opening one (any) and hearing a response in one's 4-card suit is not acceptable to the majority. but, it is not "resulting", because we actually play it, and the use of that bid would give us real solutions to the 3 hands presented by pooltuna.

#1---no, because the diamond queen is a bonus not shown, and with a diamond lead the slam is fifty-fifty at best when opener has the diamond queen.

#2 Yes, can count 12 tricks.

#3 Yes, can count 12 tricks.

the actual hand: can count twelve tricks.

[mike777]

given b/i i strongly disagree....I would open an easy 2c.....



I fully grant on bbo this is hated with two suited hands.....



p=2c
2d=2h
2nt=3s
?

[Fluffy]

the reason it is hated is because you expect RHO to ju,p when you have a 2 suiter and you never get to show spades.

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I don't think my 4♠ was marvelous, this hand seemed to depend a lot on partner having ♦A or not, and I had no way to know it, more like a pure guess.

[rd6789]

Looking at this hand again i dont see why the big hand just didn't bid blackwood - if partner has AQ♠ and A♣ then 7 is ok, if has one Ace and Q trumps or just 2 Aces then 6 - the splinter doesn't really help does it..?

Once in a blue moon you'll get too high but then that happens....