[benlessard]

IMPs W vs W


1D-------(2H)--------2S-------(3H)
5D-------(P)----------???


AKJTx
x
xxx
KJ9x

is 4D instead of 5D forcing ?

[Fluffy]

I will assume that 2♠ was 10+ forcing one round but you could make it a bit clearer.

The hand fits nicelly, but I think that partner is already aware of this, 5 keycards and spade queen is too much missing for me.

IMO 4♦ would be forcing since playing that would be too small of a target, we are too high to use a double to show values.

[gwnn]

I think almost nobody plays NFB after they preempt us. 4♦ is non forcing. Close but pass.

[Cascade]

gwnn, on Aug 15 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

I think almost nobody plays NFB after they preempt us. 4♦ is non forcing. Close but pass.

1. If you mean by pre-empt "weak" then there is nothing in the post that suggests 2♥ was weak. Many pairs play intermediate jump overcalls. Perhaps fewer when not vulnerable.

2. I play negative free-bids over the opponent's 2♥ on this auction whatever it means.

Nevertheless assuming that 2♠ is forcing then I think that 4♦ is forcing on general principles. I opened partner showed values and I showed something extra at the four-level. Sure we might not be able to make game under these conditions but I think it is much more likely that we want to be able to investigate slam than to diagnose that we have too few tricks for game.

I would pass too.

[WesleyC]

4D would be non-forcing. This hand is an obvious raise to 6D.

Give partner as little as x xxx AKxxxxx Ax and slam is laydown. How is he supposed to bid anything else without control of hearts?

[Cascade]

That is one of the many reasons why 4♦ needs to be forcing.

[WesleyC]

4D forcing might be a good agreement, but its not standard.

Even if 4D were forcing, I'd expect 5D not to be weaker, but just a hand less flexible about strain. Something like a 5D opening with a couple of high cards outside. I'm still bidding 6D.

[gwnn]

Wayne I think the normal attitude when given such a post, with no explanation is to assume that the only reason bids weren't alerted because they have their standard meaning, i.e. the one agreed upon by -say- 80% of people. If the JO had been intermediate, of the FB negative, it would have been the opening poster's obligation to clearly state it.

I think at least 80% of people play 2H shows a WJO over 1♦.

I think at least 80% of people play 2S over a WJO forces for 1 round.

Would you agree with both of these statements?

This is a bit like if someone gave us the auction

2♣-2♦
2♥-2♠
3♣-3NT-end

as a lead problem and I would be like

"Well hard to know what this auction means. For me obviously opener showed us a 1-1-4-7 shape with 10-15 hcp. Well maybe not but no explanation has been given and many people play Kerr style relays and there is nothing that suggests a non-strong club system."

I don't think that would be a constructive post. I used to like negative freebids, and I can see the merit in them, but it is a fact that very few people like them and play them. So I think hinting at the possibility that a freebid like this could be non forcing is not very useful. I see that it's Fluffy in this thread but in many many others it was you.

[Fluffy]

The problem is, the standard is often not so standard.

No matter how hard your try, everyone is gonna think their methods are more standard than they actually are.

This will always lead to a poster bbeing not sure of what OP meant a standard bid to be, it is normal and nobody should take it harsh IMO.

[benlessard]

Strong opps did pass 5D and i was surprised when dummy hit, i would have bid 6 (we dont have the agreement that 4D is forcing).
Our teammates faced a 3H preempts and after 3S, 5D ,6D down 1.

After 3S, 4D is forcing so 5D show the weaker hand type so i think that its now possible to stop at 5D.

[peachy]

WesleyC, on Aug 15 2009, 02:52 AM, said:

4D forcing might be a good agreement, but its not standard.

Even if 4D were forcing, I'd expect 5D not to be weaker, but just a hand less flexible about strain. Something like a 5D opening with a couple of high cards outside. I'm still bidding 6D.

Can you find a reference somewhere that "it is not standard". By bridge logic - mine at least - it has to be forcing.

[WesleyC]

In a competitive auction, if opener voluntarily rebids their suit at the minimum level it suggests a minimum hand with extra length. A jump rebid in the suit suggests extra length & extra strength.

If you're suggesting its 'standard' to reverse those 2 meanings, specifically when opener's rebid is 4m then what about:

1D (P) 1S (3H)
4D/5D?

or

1D (2S) x (3S)
4D/5D?

Simple agreements might not be best, but at least they make things easy!

[Fluffy]

WesleyC, on Aug 18 2009, 07:49 AM, said:

If you're suggesting its 'standard' to reverse those 2 meanings, specifically when opener's rebid is 4m then what about:

No it is when partner showed almost GF values, you pass if you wanna play partscore and everythign else is forcing.

[655321]

After partner bids 2♠ a 4♦ bid by opener sure sounds forcing to me.