[A2003]

Click to the hand below.

How to bid Slam?

How to evaluate the hand when the points are in short suit?

[Hanoi5]

I think you need a very artificial system or someone who will support clubs with KQ stiff. There are 31 HCP between the 2 hands, so going slow might have done the trick, too (West bidding hearts again after 3♣)

[nigel_k]

Hard to fault West. I'd prefer 3♦ instead of 3♣ with East. I think this ought to show extra values even if 2♦ is GF. West has an tough decison at that point but he might move towards slam in clubs. It is quite speculative though.

[Cascade]

I play a raise of 4th suit shows extra values but no distributional feature or stopper to show.

1♣ 1♥
1♠ 2♦
3♦ ?

Here responder would know that a likely hand for partner is:

♠ AQxx
♥ Ax
♦ xx
♣ AJxxx

This is a near minimum for the bid which nominally shows 15-17. If your style is to open this 1NT (if it is in range) then the actual 4=1=3=5 may be able to be predicted as well.

At this point responder can almost see the 12 twelve tricks.

The only variations that would potentially seriously worse are hands were there are two heart honours ♥ AQ or ♥ KQ and no ♣ J where we might need clubs to be 3=3. Although the possible presence of the ♣ 10 improves the odds of running that suit.

[mike777]

A2003, on Jul 27 2009, 06:21 PM, said:

Click to the hand below.

How to bid Slam?

How to evaluate the hand when the points are in short suit?

too tough....3nt for me.

thank goodness I lose for many reasons, this hand is not one of them.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

31 points slams with no real wastage are hard to bid in a natural
system.
Looking at the auction, the auction seems reasonable, although
I am not 100% sure, that West showed more than a opening bid.

In the end both players happen to hold a max.

If you play 2D as inv.+, you have to bid 3D with the East hand,
this would at least show, that East has +15.
With this information West may be inclined to give it another try,
since 3NT over 3D does not promise add. strength, maybe he can
bid 4NT, but it is very likely that the auction dies in 3NT or in 4NT.

If 2D was GF, 3C seems clear, and so is Pass, since partner may
sometimes be forced to stretch to bid 2D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[aguahombre]

Agree with Marlow, except that even if 2D is GF --3D showing extras and mildly suggesting the actual distribution and high card locations --seems to be the right bid. After that, we would probably still fail to get to the slam, but at least the 3D bid kept it alive.

[helene_t]

This is an extremely difficult hand. All honours carry full weight - trade a black jack for a red one and it becomes a bad slam. Also, if you find out you have only one heart stopper (which West probably can see), you need to know you have 12 top tricks.

[Cascade]

helene_t, on Jul 29 2009, 04:58 AM, said:

trade a black jack for a red one and it becomes a bad slam

This is a slight exaggeration.

If we swap the ♠J for the ♥J in the west hand then we have a bad slam.

If we swap the ♠J for the ♦J then we are pretty much 50% on the diamond finesse. Although perhaps slightly worse if clubs are 5-1 and a heart is led.

If we swap the ♣J for the ♥J or the ♦J then we are still above 50% on the clubs that the jack will fall in two or three rounds.

[jjbrr]

wtf. i held the W hand in DC on sunday.

[mcphee]

The agreement to raise 4th suit with 3 small is good, but not everyone has this item to use. The point of interest was 4th suit and then 3N, rather than a direct 3N. If it can imply this hand value perhaps the opening hand should raise to 4N, surely they hold enough extra values that 4N is not too risky a venture. Assuming also that the opening hand might well hold 6C the KQC is huge and responder may have elected to raise C.

I really feel the opening hand should bid 4N to cater to responders hand type.

[greenender]

I, too, would have preferred 3♦ as E, but the actual choice of 3♣ should have made it easier for W, who had an easy 4♣ bid. After E cues 4♥, I would have thought that W would have heard enough.

But deals with 15-16 in both hands are always difficult as the fact that both players have extras can easily get lost.

[Cascade]

mcphee, on Jul 29 2009, 11:55 PM, said:

The agreement to raise 4th suit with 3 small is good, but not everyone has this item to use. The point of interest was 4th suit and then 3N, rather than a direct 3N. If it can imply this hand value perhaps the opening hand should raise to 4N, surely they hold enough extra values that 4N is not too risky a venture. Assuming also that the opening hand might well hold 6C the KQC is huge and responder may have elected to raise C.

I really feel the opening hand should bid 4N to cater to responders hand type.

Fourth suit and then 3NT is ambiguous. It could be a hand with a five-card major primarily looking for three-card support perhaps with a dodgy stopper or it could be a hand that is slightly too strong for 3NT on the previous round (or both of these options combined).

Nevertheless a key to good slam bidding is quantitative bids so somewhere sometime both players need to be able to show their extra values. The extra values should produce an extra trick so that almost always 4NT will be safe but on the other hand there is a big reward if partner can bid a (making) slam.

As I said earlier I like a scheme where the raise of 4th suit shows the extra values with no other more descriptive bid and here responder can almost count the tricks.

[kenrexford]

Walsh and thinking helps a lot here.

If the auction starts 1♣-P-1♥-P-1♠, Opener has shown five clubs and a spade suit (albeit possibly three as I play, but ignore that issue).

Responder, therefore, knows that he has a huge hand. HQ in clubs is assuredly two covers, as is the club King. The A-K in diamonds are two assured covers, as well, if Opener has at least two diamonds. That's five solid tricks, with the spade Jack as an obviously nice card. If Opener has a six-loser hand, then the sole question seems to be how good the clubs are.

Suppose a 2♦ 4SGF next. When Opener does not raise hearts, Opener is more likely to have two diamonds. The 3♣ call suggests a sixth club or very good five clubs, which contextually just about has to promise AJ10.

If Opener opts 3♣, as he did, then Responder just about has to move hard now. I personally think the call should be 4♥ if a Bluhmer or Empathetic Splinter. Whatever the move, Responder has enough info to push this one up.