[123ekim]

My p and I play SAYC and 1430.

I bid 1S, P bids 2D, I bid 3C, P bids 4NT.

Have we agreed that that we are playing clubs and is he using 1430?

[aguahombre]

even in sayc, 4C would set trump here. So, I don't think it is 1430 for clubs. A good fallback, IMO, is that when trumps could have been set and a forcing auction is established, jumps in NT show NT and extras. 3NT would have been to play, so 4NT is bigger.

[MFA]

Quantitative.
To go club-slamming, partner has to bid 4♣ on the way.

[Rossoneri]

Agreed with the rest that it's quantitative.

[jillybean]

How can it be quantitative?

[zheddh]

I think it is common for intermediates to play this as agreeing clubs, because not every one is sure partner would take 4C as forcing when nothing has been agreed. This is particularly true online.

So, your partner might mean that as rkc in clubs. That said, personally, I like the Quantitative interpretation more because I like to use 4C as a forcing slam try.

The other option is to use 4C as an invitation, which i think is really bad anyway.

[movingon]

give keycards in clubs... We don't know if that is going to the trump suit, but you should bid according to that assumption. Pard will clarify...

[aguahombre]

i do not share the concerns in sayc or any other system about 4c not being forcing. Even though the 2/1 did not create a game force, the high reverse to 3c did. So, support can be shown easily and jumps in NT can show extra strength.

[jillybean]

oops

[Trumpace]

I don't understand this being quantitative.

1S-3C bidder hasn't either limited the values or distribution. How can responder even consider himself the captain (and say rule out a grand slam)?

[aguahombre]

Trumpace, on Jul 25 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

I don't understand this being quantitative.

1S-3C bidder hasn't either limited the values or distribution. How can responder even consider himself the captain (and say rule out a grand slam)?

your point that opener is unlimited is accurate. Your conclusion and definition of Captaincy is not. Responder is not taking over, rather he is the first to describe his size and shape within reasonable bounds My guess is about 16 with 2 3 5 3 distribution.

[shevek]

RKC in clubs.
Any jump over a suit bid is RKC. True, pd could have bid 4♣ but perhaps his hand is suitable for taking over:
♠x  ♥AKx  ♦AKQJTx  ♣Qxx

Why fiddle when the black aces and ♣K matter most?

Even if he has a normal raise to 4♣, it may be right not to pass the buck:

♠x  ♥Ax  AKxxx  ♣KQxxx

4♣ is okay here, planning 4NT over the 4♠ cuebid but opener may not see it that way. To him, 4♠ could be an offer to play. Also, he may have bid 3♣ on a 3-card suit, now regretting it.

[MFA]

I agree that 4♠ from opener over 4♣ is natural. But when responder then blackwoods, the supported suit are trumps.

Edit: Reply to shevek.

[FrancesHinden]

4NT is quantitative.
If you want to agree clubs, raise them.

Look at it this way: you have a bid to show slam interest in clubs (4C). You have a bid to show spade support (3S). You have a bid to show good diamonds (3D).
You either have a bid to show doubt (3H) or a bid to show hearts (3H) depending on your methods.

What you don't have is a bid to show no fit but extra values and interest in slam, that's 4NT.

[jillybean]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 25 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

4NT is quantitative.
If you want to agree clubs, raise them.

Look at it this way: you have a bid to show slam interest in clubs (4C). You have a bid to show spade support (3S). You have a bid to show good diamonds (3D).
You either have a bid to show doubt (3H) or a bid to show hearts (3H) depending on your methods.

What you don't have is a bid to show no fit but extra values and interest in slam, that's 4NT.

sayc

1♥:2♦
3♣:4N*

What are openers responses to Quantitative 4N here?

tyia

[Trumpace]

For some reason I dislike the term quantitative. To me it seems that a 'quantitative' 4NT implies opener must either pass or raise to small slam!

Perhaps calling it natural is more natural?

[peachy]

After 1S-2D-3C, the partnership is in a gameforcing auction because opener showed extras by the 3C bid. Responder has lots of room to show various types of hands and room to engage in RKC the next round after a fit is established (if there is one). Therefore, the logical conclusion for me is that it must be a general slam invite. Opener responds to it by Pass, jump to slam, or respond keycards on the way - with the last bid suit = clubs, as trumps for the RKC purpose only. Any bid other than Pass from opener is accepting the slam invite.

But I think, if this was a random BBO pickup, it is safest to assume that 4NT was not a natural slam invite and that 3C did not promise extras afterall and that 4NT is "always" RKC...

[blackshoe]

Under "Slam Bidding", the SAYC booklet says "Blackwood 4NT is used to ask for aces." This is simple Blackwood, not keycard.

That said, I agree that 4NT ought to be quantitative here. In my partnerships, we have the simple agreement that if opener is going to accept the invitation, he shows aces (simple BW) along the way. Responder's 5NT is then not asking for kings - it's "oops, forget slam". This is probably not the best agreement one could have, but it's better than nothing.

[pirate22]

the 4n/t bidder is in control, the opener sits back, and relaxes- just respond with your aces.the 4n/t will decide the suit or maybe in n/t as to the final contract

[skjaeran]

4NT is natural here, that is, a hand too strong to just bid 3NT, but not strong enough to force to the 6-level. The normal nomenclature is to call it quantitative.

Most beginners and intermediates (a lot of experienced players too) would take 4NT as asking for aces (old fashioned 4 aces) or keycards with clubs as the inferred trump suit.