[FrancesHinden]

jillybean, on Jul 25 2009, 05:03 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 25 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

4NT is quantitative.
If you want to agree clubs, raise them.

Look at it this way: you have a bid to show slam interest in clubs (4C).  You have a bid to show spade support (3S).  You have a bid to show good diamonds (3D).
You either have a bid to show doubt (3H) or a bid to show hearts (3H) depending on your methods.

What you don't have is a bid to show no fit but extra values and interest in slam, that's 4NT.

sayc

1♥:2♦
3♣:4N*

What are openers responses to Quantitative 4N here?

tyia

By far the most frequent rebids by opener are pass and 6NT.

Other things opener can do are to bid a suit to show extra stuff in the suit and uncertainty about the final strain. A prime source of accidents is confusion over whether e.g. 5C from opener is non-forcing (showing a very light opening bid with 6-5 or 6-6 in hearts and clubs) or forcing (showing a 5-5 with extra values).

Opener can bid a suit at the 6-level to suggest strongly playing there.

[Free]

4NT is quantitative, since with a C or S fit he should just support. Quantitative in this situation doesn't commit us to playing NT, opener with extra distribution can still bid 5C, 5D, 5S, 6C, 6D or 6S to show min/max and extra distribution.

[ggwhiz]

I agree with the 4nt quantitative camp and IF I accept, I respond keycard on clubs since it should be useful information regardless of where responder wants to place the final contract.

That is a specific agreement with my regular partner but regardless you can at least survive the postmortem in one piece.

What about this variation?

1♠ - 2♥
3♥ - 3♠ followed later by 4nt from either partner

We play that the keycard suit is the one raised by whomever bid 4nt, again specifically agreed.

[P_Marlowe]

RKCB for clubs.

Of course you could set up a forcing auction for clubs with 4C,
which may argue in favor of 4NT being quantitativ.
It is just the fact, that I dont believe that quantitative makes a
lot of sense.
You have FSF available to ask partner, if he has a highly
distributional hand, and I would virtually ever bid FSF, if I would hold
a hand, which would like to make a quantitative 4NT.

The advantage of course is, that I may even be able to stop in 3NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[peachy]

blackshoe, on Jul 25 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

Under "Slam Bidding", the SAYC booklet says "Blackwood 4NT is used to ask for aces." This is simple Blackwood, not keycard.

In SAYC, yes. OP said they play 1430.

[lilboyman]

The problem with SAYC is that it is not that "standard." If one looks at the ACBL SAYC booklet: (http://web2.acbl.org.../play/SP3%20(bk)%20single%20pages.pdf), a rebid by opener of 3 Clubs is 13 to 18 and, hence, is not necessarily game forcing. In that case responder's 4 Clubs could be considered invitational agreeing to Clubs. If responder is afraid 4 Clubs will lead to pass or 5 Clubs, then a skip to 4NT is understandable. That being said, most better players would consider 3 Clubs as game forcing and as pointed out in posts above, 4NT could be quantitative.

So, in a regular partnership whether 3C is a game force has to be discussed as well as what 4NT would mean here. With casual online play its just a guess. A common agreement for 1430 is that absent suit agreement one should answer for the last bid suit. Responder should be able to handle that no matter what.

[blackshoe]

peachy, on Jul 26 2009, 01:42 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Jul 25 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

Under "Slam Bidding", the SAYC booklet says "Blackwood 4NT is used to ask for aces." This is simple Blackwood, not keycard.

In SAYC, yes. OP said they play 1430.

Actually, what the OP said was "SAYC and 1430". So they aren't playing SAYC, and to say they are is an error.

[jillybean]

blackshoe, on Jul 26 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

peachy, on Jul 26 2009, 01:42 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Jul 25 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

Under "Slam Bidding", the SAYC booklet says "Blackwood 4NT is used to ask for aces." This is simple Blackwood, not keycard.

In SAYC, yes. OP said they play 1430.

Actually, what the OP said was "SAYC and 1430". So they aren't playing SAYC, and to say they are is an error.

Common mistake, many people call 5card majors and 15-17 NT "sayc".

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

a rebid by opener of 3 Clubs is 13 to 18 and, hence, is not necessarily game forcing.

No it isn't. The SAYC document is only a summary, and really can't be used to learn SA completely. A rebid of 3c has always been termed a "high reverse", and reverses are 16+, 17+ in SA.

It's massively impractical to rebid 3c on a 13 count; since responder promised a rebid, you'll often be in 3nt with 12hcp opposite 11 or even less the way people open & respond these days. Also having such a wide range makes it impossible for responder to know what to do with say 15-16 pts, since if opener can have a bare min, he doesn't want to beyond 3nt, while if opener promises extras the quantitative 4nt is in order if no black suit fit.