[jeffford76]

If your preference is different than what you'd expect undiscussed, please elaborate.

[awm]

It doesn't cancel the initial meaning of double (i.e. takeout of diamonds). It should just show extra values; presumably it includes some club length but it's not "penalty" per se.

[Fluffy]

I would expect 44 majors for this second double rather than a 3424.

That doesn't mean you couldn't have 3424 or alike, just that then you would have even more strenght.

So takeout, even more takeout that what I think adam is saying IMO.

[Codo]

I would agree with Adam.

[zheddh]

Codo, on Jul 24 2009, 01:11 AM, said:

I would agree with Adam.

Agree++;

[P_Marlowe]

t/o, but a strong bal. hand is the most likely,
so if you really have to - call it optional.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

4432 is typical.

[bid_em_up]

As a general rule, the first two doubles below game level by the same person are takeout, unless a suit as been bid by our side.

i.e. in the original sequence given:

(1D) - X - (2C) - p -
(p) - ?

A second X here is still takeout because our side has not named a suit yet. As others have stated, it should show additional values as well.

in this sequence:

(1D) - X - (2C) - 2H -
(3C) - ?

X at this point would be penalty as our side has named a suit (2H) as requested by the original takeout double.

jmoo.

[jdonn]

It's extra strength, with no further shape requirements beyond the original double other than negative inferences from not bidding a suit or notrump now. I guess that is closer to penalty than takeout.

Absolute rule: You can't make two takeout doubles of two different suits in the same auction.

[aguahombre]

jdonn, on Jul 24 2009, 09:44 AM, said:

Absolute rule: You can't make two takeout doubles of two different suits in the same auction.

Great. No real comment here, just wanted to be the first to quote you on that

[jeffford76]

S 102
H 9754
D A742
C J65

Assuming you hold this hand opposite the double, what's your call?

EDIT: I mean after the second double, assuming a pass after 2C.

[ArtK78]

2♥.

EDIT: I assume that you mean after the second double. I would pass over 2♣.

[Gerben42]

Take out, I even have the fitting T-shirt
With the example hand, 2♥

[bid_em_up]

I would pass initially over 2♣ (as you did). There are those who will bid 2♥ here though, and that may be ok also. This may be the only chance you get to show the heart suit, and it's not like the hand is totally devoid of "features". The downside is that it will practically guarantee a heart lead (if partner is on lead) which may be bad for our side.

Having passed over 2♣ initially, 2♥ after the second double is practically mandantory. Our hand is not strong enough to defend 2♣ x'd even though partner's second double shows extra strength.

EDIT #1: Art, I assumed you meant after the 2nd X (just in case you think the above was directed at your initial statement, it was not). It was just a general observation that some people might bid 2♥ immediately.

EDIT #2: Further consideration leads me to believe 3♥ at this point may be a better choice of calls. We have already denied a hand better than this by not bidding 2♥ over 2♣ immediately, but this hand is also better than
xx 9xxx xxxx Jxx which we could easily hold when we only bid 2♥. It's a close choice and may also be dependent on your style, and your partner (and if the A♦ was the A♥, the choice becomes even closer).

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Jul 24 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

It's extra strength, with no further shape requirements beyond the original double other than negative inferences from not bidding a suit or notrump now. I guess that is closer to penalty than takeout.

Absolute rule: You can't make two takeout doubles of two different suits in the same auction.

Yes. Penalties. Most likely to be strong balanced, but doesn't have to be.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Absolute rule: You can't make two takeout doubles of two different suits in the same auction.

That's not absolute, you can be three small in a suit, and in a minor, even less. Besides, my T-shirt is always right

[bid_em_up]

aguahombre, on Jul 24 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 24 2009, 09:44 AM, said:

Absolute rule: You can't make two takeout doubles of two different suits in the same auction.

Great. No real comment here, just wanted to be the first to quote you on that

It's not official unless it's in the signature line.

[shevek]

bid_em_up, on Jul 24 2009, 08:27 AM, said:

As a general rule, the first two doubles below game level by the same person are takeout, unless a suit as been bid by our side.

in this sequence:

(1D) - X - (2C) - 2H -
(3C) -  ?

X at this point would be penalty as our side has named a suit (2H) as requested by the original takeout double.

jmoo.

Don't like penalty doubles of suits they have freely bid and raised.

This particular double could be "something else"
Perhaps a good raise to 3♥, while 3♥ instead would be competitive.

Another treatment would be a 3-card raise, maybe 4-3-3-3 such as
♠AKxx  ♥QJx   Jxx   ♣Axx

[pooltuna]

shevek, on Jul 25 2009, 09:08 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 24 2009, 08:27 AM, said:

As a general rule, the first two doubles below game level by the same person are takeout, unless a suit as been bid by our side.

in this sequence:

(1D) - X - (2C) - 2H -
(3C) -  ?

X at this point would be penalty as our side has named a suit (2H) as requested by the original takeout double.

jmoo.

Don't like penalty doubles of suits they have freely bid and raised.

This particular double could be "something else"
Perhaps a good raise to 3♥, while 3♥ instead would be competitive.

Another treatment would be a 3-card raise, maybe 4-3-3-3 such as
♠AKxx  ♥QJx   Jxx   ♣Axx

Pardon me!!! Did you not make a takeout double of 1♦ promising support for the other 3 suits if minimum so what are you choices if chose to make a TOX holding

♠Axxx
♥KJx
♦xx
♣AQT9

In other words, in this case Eric Leong from Rec.Games.Bridge, how do you tell the opponents they have made a mistake?

[cherdanno]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 24 2009, 01:43 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 24 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

It's extra strength, with no further shape requirements beyond the original double other than negative inferences from not bidding a suit or notrump now. I guess that is closer to penalty than takeout.

Absolute rule: You can't make two takeout doubles of two different suits in the same auction.

Yes. Penalties. Most likely to be strong balanced, but doesn't have to be.

Hmm, do you two really agree? Josh says there is a negative inference from not bidding NT now, you say it is most likely strong balanced (I happen to agree with that).
Too bad we can't ask jdonn anymore