[tenbrvc]

Holding ♠ AJ9 ♥ AJTxx ♦ KQxx ♣ x

I opened 1H, and partner responded 2H.

At the table, I bid 3D, and partner bid 3H with

♠ T8x ♥ KQx ♦ Jxxx ♣ KJx

I passed and made +170

Two questions:

1. Should I bid 2S or 3D as a help suit game try? And why?

2. I felt partner should have bid 4H because he had a maximum raise, even if he felt we did not have a "fit" in diamonds or have too many losers in diamonds. What do you think?

Thanks.

[dake50]

Would 2S let partner show 3C =C-stuff so you don't go?

MP prefer in 4S marginally. Needs no D-ruff +C-wins or SK or SQ on.

IMP need to bid 4S Vul -that I would criticize partner for rejecting any try with max single raise esp HKQ knowing those will be liked.

[Codo]

I think that HSGTs are worse then other methods, so I switched some years ago.
Anyway, as far as I know a HSGT shows a suit with 4 cards and 2 top honours, so 3 Diamond was surely the right bid with the given methods.

So it was up to your partner to evaluate his Jxxx. This is a good holdung opposite AQxx and KQxx and AKTx, but not good opposite AKxx. I think, partner should have accepted you invitation. His holding is not idle, but he has an ok-holding and he has a big maximum.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, and not that this would help, but a game try that describes well is less effective than a game try that paints a picture that will lead partner in the right direction if he has the hand we want.

For this reason, I personally would have made a "HSGT" of 2♠. Partner can yell all he wants later, but here's why.

3♦ shows diamonds, but it helps partner little. If he has the diamond Ace, he would value that regardless of what game try I make. But, he has no idea whether his club King is worth anything. Had partner held the exact same hand, but the spade King, then 4♥ would clearly be right, but he would have no clue. Hence, I try to make HSGT moves (or natural game tries) in the suit that is missing the Kings or Queen or both and not in the one that is missing only the Ace.

Second, 3♦ gives partner no room. 2♠ would have allowed partner space to bid 2NT, 3♣, or 3♦ as a counter game-try. Over some of these, you can counter back. As a result, I tend to make HSGT/natural GT in the lower of two suits when 5431, regardless of which suit is longer. More discussion occurs.

On this specific hand, a 2♠ GT would get a 3♣ counter. At this point, you can bid 3♦ and paint a better picture of your overall hand, which would help partner evaluate his hand better. Or, you could even make a purely gut decision of bidding game simply because partner's 3♣ call shows something better then signing off at 3♥, such that partner must have general "stuff."

[wclass___]

For me HSGT looks something like: xxx; xxxx; Hxx; KJx
So I would never bidd HSG with this hand.
I would prefer to show my short♣ or bid 4♥ directly

[655321]

A game try does not say 'Listen partner, bid one more if you have perfect cards in this suit, but the rest of the time we will play at the 3 level.' A game try says 'I am interested in game and here is something about my hand'. With the cards partner held, he just needed to hear 'I am interested in game' to bid a game, the rest of the sentence doesn't matter.

I am not a big fan of long suit game tries, and don't have much of an opinion about 2♠ compared to 3♦, they both seem OK to me.

[tenbrvc]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this. And kenrexford for taking the time to explain it in detail. I really appreciate it!

[nigel_k]

What Ken said. Opposite a help suit game try, partner will value secondary honours or a shortage because those will cover your losers. So 2S is better than 3D because he won't have secondary diamond honours and a diamond shortage isn't that good for you. It also saves space which is a bonus.

On the actual hand, partner should probably have bid 4H or 3NT. He's maximum and his cards are not terrible even opposite a diamond try. You should maybe have bid 4H directly, especially if partner would respond 1NT with a bad heart raise.

Also, you might consider 2NT as a game try (not necessarily balanced) when no other try fits. On the actual hand your spades might be ok even opposite three small. If they were better (eg AJT) a help suit try in spades wouldn't really do much for you.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 2NT, general game try, your diamond suit is great, this is not a suit
to make a help suit game try.
Your spade suit is a little bit weaker, but you dont want to discourage
p either, if he happens to hold Qxx in spades.
In general: A typical suit for a help suit trial bid, looks something like
xxx or Hxx.
#2 Yes, game tries in general are meant to discover low HCP games, if
you have enough HCP, bid game, you will usually make it on power
alone, a case in point is the actual hand, partner club values are wasted
and you still have lots of play for 4H.
Depending on agreement, partner may ofer 3NT as a possible contract,
given that he is fairly balanced (4333), and happens to hold scattered
values, given your club single you will prefer the major suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Personnally I prefer long suit, i.e. trial bids which show values, but that
is my personal preference.

[pooltuna]

tenbrvc, on Jul 21 2009, 10:23 PM, said:

Holding ♠ AJ9 ♥ AJTxx ♦ KQxx ♣ x

I opened 1H, and partner responded 2H.

At the table, I bid 3D, and partner bid 3H with

♠ T8x ♥ KQx ♦ Jxxx ♣ KJx

I passed and made +170

Two questions:

1. Should I bid 2S or 3D as a help suit game try? And why?

2. I felt partner should have bid 4H because he had a maximum raise, even if he felt we did not have a "fit" in diamonds or have too many losers in diamonds. What do you think?

Thanks.

1. Neither just bid 4♥ especially if 2♥ was a constructive raise. If it could be weaker then try 4♦

2. Your partner had a "if he breathes again he is in game" 2♥ everyone else is making a LR [well not me] with his hand and he seems to think he is holding
♠xxx ♥Qxx ♦xxxx ♣KJx

[Echognome]

One thing I hate about help suit game tries is that it seems everyone has a different definition as to what they mean.

[peachy]

Echognome, on Jul 24 2009, 11:08 AM, said:

One thing I hate about help suit game tries is that it seems everyone has a different definition as to what they mean.

Well, they definition isn't unclear, but I agree a lot of people do not know what a HSGT is. Most people without gadgets use natural (long suit) game tries as was the case in the OP and mistakenly call them HSGT.
HSGT is asking partner if he can stop three quick losers in the suit. When opener has KQxx in the suit as in the OP case, opener does not need partner's help in THAT suit. Typical holding for opener who uses HSGT is Qxx, Jxx or even xxx or xxxx. Responder accepts HSGT only if he can give a positive answer to the question asked, and the acceptance or rejection has nothing to do with minimums or maximums or anything else than the suit being asked. Positive response is void, singleton, doubleton, Kx (or longer) Ax (or longer), KQx, even QJx. If there is room below three of the agreed suit, responder can sometimes make a "counter offer" in another suit, suggesting values there AND denying the asked-for holding in the HSGT suit at the same time.

[RichMor]

peachy, on Jul 24 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

Echognome, on Jul 24 2009, 11:08 AM, said:

One thing I hate about help suit game tries is that it seems everyone has a different definition as to what they mean.

Well, they definition isn't unclear, but I agree a lot of people do not know what a HSGT is. Most people without gadgets use natural (long suit) game tries as was the case in the OP and mistakenly call them HSGT.
HSGT is asking partner if he can stop three quick losers in the suit. When opener has KQxx in the suit as in the OP case, opener does not need partner's help in THAT suit. Typical holding for opener who uses HSGT is Qxx, Jxx or even xxx or xxxx. Responder accepts HSGT only if he can give a positive answer to the question asked, and the acceptance or rejection has nothing to do with minimums or maximums or anything else than the suit being asked. Positive response is void, singleton, doubleton, Kx (or longer) Ax (or longer), KQx, even QJx. If there is room below three of the agreed suit, responder can sometimes make a "counter offer" in another suit, suggesting values there AND denying the asked-for holding in the HSGT suit at the same time.

This is a very good explanation of HSGT and follow ups.

[ArtK78]

Another way of looking at help suit game tries is that the asker is requesting that partner upgrade secondary values in the help suit and downgrade secondary values in the other suits. This fits the 2♠ help suit game try perfectly - you need Aces in the minor suits, not Kings or Queens or Jacks, and you need "stuff" in spades. Partner knows that any honors that he has in the trump suit are working.

So, opposite a 2♠ help suit game try, partner will look at his T8x in spades and not be particularly impressed. His Jxxx of diamonds is neither here nor there, but his KJx holding in clubs is not good news. He likes his KQx in hearts, but that is not news.

All in all, it is far from clear that a 2♠ game try is going to get the job done.

If my partner bid 2♠ over 2♥, I would bid 3♣, which says that I can't bid game on the basis of help in spades, but I am still interested and I have values in clubs. Not primary values - the ♣A would have been a good holding opposite a 2♠ game try - but secondary values.

Now the ball is in partner's court. His club holding is not good news opposite secondary values in clubs, but his hand is very good opposite a partner who did not sign off. It is a close call.

Quite frankly, it is hard to diagnose that these two hands fit as well as they do. The T8x of spades fits in quite nicely with the AJ9, and the Jxxx of diamonds solidifies the diamond holding. Even the ♣KJx may be working just in case both spade honors are offside and you can't perform a partial elimination.

[kenrexford]

I hate a "HSGT" and a "LSGT" myself. I like a "natural" game try.