[jillybean]

Dealer: West Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ A8 ♥ Q764 ♦ QT8 ♣ AQJ8

West North East South

 Pass  1♦    2♠    Dbl
 Pass  3♣    Pass  ?  

My motto seems to be, "If in doubt, bid 3nt" , I want to bid a little smarter than that.
What is your bid here? 3♠ perhaps

[zheddh]

3S asking partner to bid 3NT with a spade stopper..

[mikeh]

There is another axiom that you need to be concerned about here: '3N ends all auctions'.

Consider partner holding, say, Qx Kx AJxxx Kxxx

The bidding would go the same way, wouldn't it? Now imagine 3n from your side on a spade lead... ugh.

Or x Kx AKxxx Kxxxx: would you pull 3N if your partner bid it?

The best way to look at this is that you have game going values, perhaps slam-going values opposite the right 13 count or so, and no clear direction.

The answer is to cue bid... 3♠. Ignore anyone who claims that this is a Western Cue (a convention that had some popularity many years ago and lingers in some minds)... it is simply a gf asking partner to 'do something intelligent'.

Opener can rebid 3N on a dubious spade holding, because opener didn't bid 2N last time... so Qx is permissible... Qxx clear. And with 5-5 minors, he will bid 4♣, and you can try for slam (by 4♠) or sign off in what must surely be a decent 5♣ contract.

Sometimes partner will be stuck... some horrible 2=2=5=4 with no spade card... and then will probably have to bid 4♦ because the club suit is too weak to rebid (with Qxxxx AKJx in the minors, for example, 4♣ may be a better compromise than 4♦, but you know his minors don't look like that).

BTW, if he lacks a spade card, you will be hardpressed to construct a hand on which 3N is good and 5♣ is terrible, but it is easy to construct hands on which the opposite is true. That, in itself, should tell you that bidding 3N now is a bad choice. And if he has a spade card, well...he'll bid 3N over 3♠.

[zheddh]

mikeh, on Jul 21 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

There is another axiom that you need to be concerned about here: '3N ends all auctions'.

Consider partner holding, say, Qx Kx  AJxxx Kxxx

The bidding would go the same way, wouldn't it? Now imagine 3n from your side on a spade lead... ugh.

Or x Kx AKxxx Kxxxx: would you pull 3N if your partner bid it?

The best way to look at this is that you have game going values, perhaps slam-going values opposite the right 13 count or so, and no clear direction.

The answer is to cue bid... 3♠. Ignore anyone who claims that this is a Western Cue (a convention that had some popularity many years ago and lingers in some minds)... it is simply a gf asking partner to 'do something intelligent'.

Opener can rebid 3N on a dubious spade holding, because opener didn't bid 2N last time... so Qx is permissible... Qxx clear. And with 5-5 minors, he will bid 4♣, and you can try for slam (by 4♠) or sign off in what must surely be a decent 5♣ contract.

Sometimes partner will be stuck... some horrible 2=2=5=4 with no spade card... and then will probably have to bid 4♦ because the club suit is too weak to rebid (with Qxxxx AKJx in the minors, for example, 4♣ may be a better compromise than 4♦, but you know his minors don't look like that).

BTW, if he lacks a spade card, you will be hardpressed to construct a hand on which 3N is good and 5♣ is terrible, but it is easy to construct hands on which the opposite is true. That, in itself, should tell you that bidding 3N now is a bad choice. And if he has a spade card, well...he'll bid 3N over 3♠.

very nice explanation with reply

[jillybean]

mikeh, on Jul 21 2009, 08:21 AM, said:

There is another axiom that you need to be concerned about here: '3N ends all auctions'.

Good point

mikeh, on Jul 21 2009, 08:21 AM, said:

The answer is to cue bid... 3♠. Ignore anyone who claims that this is a Western Cue (a convention that had some popularity many years ago and lingers in some minds)... it is simply a gf asking partner to 'do something intelligent'.

Isn’t this exactly what a Western Cue is – do something intelligent partner, including bidding 3nt if you have a ♠ stopper? Or it could be slam interest, partner will bid 4m over 3nt.

1♦ (2♠) X (P)
3♣ (P) 3♠

Or in this auction:
1♥:2♣
2♦:3♣
3♠ "Western Cue", bid 3nt if you have ♠'s stopped.

And then there is:
1♥ (2♣) 2♦ (2♠)
3♣* now shows a ♣ stopper and asks partner to bid 3nt with ♠'s stopped.

I have Western Cue on my CC, heavens knows if Im playing it as intended or I'd be better playing other methods?

[jdonn]

I think of western cuebid as being very literal. Bid notrump with a stopper. The better way Mike is suggesting, remember that you might have something more intelligent to do than show a stopper.

[Phil]

mikeh, on Jul 21 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

Opener can rebid 3N on a dubious spade holding, because opener didn't bid 2N last time... so Qx is permissible...

This is a bit of a reach, but otherwise a very thoughtful post from the barrister.

[jillybean]

What if my hand was a little better and I wanted to explore slam,

1♦ (2♠) X (P)
3♣ :3♠
3N : ?

How do you continue from here?

[mikeh]

jillybean2, on Jul 21 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

What if my hand was a little better and I wanted to explore slam,

1♦ (2♠) X (P)
3♣ :3♠
3N : ?

How do you continue from here?

It depends... any call beyond 3N shows slam interest. Bridge logic dictates that this is so. Even a leap to 5minor suggests some slam interest, since there must be a reason you bid 3♠ first (you could have bid 5minor last time).

So your call depends on WHICH slam you are looking for.

Thus 4N would be a generic invitation to 6N... based, presumably, on something like a good balanced or semi-balanced 18 count or so.

4minor would 'set' that minor as trump and invite a cooperative cuebidding slam exploration, in which 4N by either player would be passable.

Note that this latter approach will send shockwaves of horror and disbelief amongst those who believe it to be a sin to bid slam without using blackwood.

Some would play that 4minor here not only sets trump but is also keycard... I hate the method, but actually play it with one partner (who accommodates some of my idiosyncracies in turn).

[cherdanno]

Let me just add one thing that Mike and Josh didn't mention. 3N would be a much better bid if you have ♠Axx. As it is, spades could very well be 6232 around the table (with partner having 2). In that case, you cannot shutout preempter's spade suit by holding up, and you would need to take 9 top tricks right away. If you have Axx, you can duck twice and then establish tricks if you only lose the lead to LHO.

[Lobowolf]

mikeh, on Jul 21 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

4minor would 'set' that minor as trump and invite a cooperative cuebidding slam exploration, in which 4N by either player would be passable.

Note that this latter approach will send shockwaves of horror and disbelief amongst those who believe it to be a sin to bid slam without using blackwood.

Not to mention, you're suggesting that 4♣ wouldn't be Gerber(!!)

[mikeh]

Lobowolf, on Jul 21 2009, 04:24 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 21 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

4minor would 'set' that minor as trump and invite a cooperative cuebidding slam exploration, in which 4N by either player would be passable.

Note that this latter approach will send shockwaves of horror and disbelief amongst those who believe it to be a sin to bid slam without using blackwood.

Not to mention, you're suggesting that 4♣ wouldn't be Gerber(!!)

actually, one treatment I like is that 5♣, over 3N, would be gerber... I didn't mention that earlier because I was already adding complexity beyond the scope of a B/I issue, but now that the G word has been mentioned, this is known as Super-G****r