[Codo]

gnasher, on Jul 8 2009, 05:01 PM, said:

What shape can partner be to have only three spades? With a very weak 3343 or 3253 he should bid 2♣, because that's less likely to get raised to the four level.

I guess that this advice is not mainstream, is it?

Normally anybody and his grandma advocates to bid the major because it is much more likely to have a 4-3 fit there and you are one level lower.

And I do not see the upsides of your approach anyway. Okay in the stoneage, there had been the possibility that partner will raise you to 4 in your major. But is this a real threat nowadays? I doubt so. If you wish to find out whether partner has 3 or 4 spades, you may bid 2 ♦ and take it from there.

[Fluffy]

Cascade, on Jul 8 2009, 12:13 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 8 2009, 10:20 AM, said:

Cascade, on Jul 7 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

benlessard, on Jul 8 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

X and 3C forcing

I thought the standard for 3♣ was something like 19 HCP but not forcing.

what do you think 2♣ shows?

A bit less than 3♣.

2 clubs then double is around 17 for me, there is no big place for something in between

[gnasher]

Codo, on Jul 8 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

I guess that this advice is not mainstream, is it?

I thought it was. Regarding a similar problem, holding a 3433 4-count after (1♥) dbl, Lawrence wrote, "There is logic for bidding 1♠ and logic for bidding 2♣. If you bid 1♠, keeping the bidding low, your partner will be pleased to hear you have spades and may raise. If you bid 2♣, your partner may not raise, but being at the two level may be bad for you. Take your choice."

That was written in 1994. My impression is that since then the arguments for 2♣ have won, but maybe I'm wrong, or maybe this is a regional difference.

Quote

And I do not see the upsides of your approach anyway. Okay in the stoneage, there had been the possibility that partner will raise you to 4 in your major. But is this a real threat nowadays? I doubt so. If you wish to find out whether partner has 3 or 4 spades, you may bid 2 ♦ and take it from there.

So you respond 1♠ on your 3253 2-count and partner bids 2♦. How do you say that you have only three spades?

[Codo]

Hi Andy,

it depends. In your method I can try 2 HEart, in my less scientific approach I can try 2 Spade. This does not deny a 4. spade, however if I have one, I have a hand close to a yarb. And I doubt that say xxxx,xx,xxxx,xxx is much stronger then Qxx, xx,xxxxx,xxx.

With a little more, I can try 2 NT to show that I have just 3 spades but maybe a late diamond stop, f.e. Kxx,xxx,JTxx,xxx.

And I doubt that you will be better placed after:

(1♦) X (pass) 2♣
(pass) 2 ♦ (pass)....

Does 2 spade sound like a 3253 hand to you? Mabe it does, but I would not try it without prior discussion.

[gnasher]

Let's go back to what you said a couple of posts ago, [after a 1♠ advance] "If you wish to find out whether partner has 3 or 4 spades, you may bid 2♦ and take it from there."

So, over 2♦, your advancer might bid 2♠, which could be 3, 4 or perhaps 5 spades. Or, he might bid 2NT, which shows slightly more strength, but still doesn't say whether he has 3 or 4 spades. You haven't got very far, have you?

Quote

(1♦) X (pass) 2♣
(pass) 2 ♦ (pass)....
Does 2 spade sound like a 3253 hand to you

No, it sounds like a 3xx4 shape with a spade honour. That may or may be a small misdescription or a big one, but at least it isn't going to get raised to the four level. My advancer can also rebid his three-card club suit, without promising more than four. That might be a 4-3 or 3-3 fit, but it has the advantage of not being at the game level.

Furthermore, my advancer will face a 2♦ cue bid less often than yours. On many of the hands where your doubler bids 2♦, trying to find out if there's a spade fit, my doubler will bid 2NT.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Jul 8 2009, 08:09 AM, said:

That was written in 1994.  My impression is that since then the arguments for 2♣ have won, but maybe I'm wrong, or maybe this is a regional difference.

I suppose it must be a regional difference since I had exactly the opposite impression. I thought it was completely normal to bid your lowest (above the suit doubled) three card suit if stuck. I wouldn't particularly worry about a three card spade suit (although bidding clubs at some point is still not a bad idea), but to me it's possible if partner is 3253 or possibly 3262. Not 3343 since he would similarly bid 1♥.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Jul 8 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

I suppose it must be a regional difference since I had exactly the opposite impression.

It's possible that it's a regional difference in the sense of my being in a different region of the Solar System from everyone else. Where's Frances when you need her?