[skjaeran]

It looks natural to kick it in with the north hand, IMO.

[jdonn]

Anyway I agree that opposite a 'normal' (18-19 if balanced) 3♠ bid north has a clear game bid.

[ONEferBRID]

Was the trump K onsides ?
If it were offside, how do you make 10 tricks with an opening Cl lead?.

[Cascade]

ONEferBRID, on Jul 7 2009, 10:47 AM, said:

Was the trump K onsides ?
If it were offside, how do you make 10 tricks with an opening Cl lead?.

1. I want to be in game vulnerable where it depends on a finesse or the opponents not finding the optimal lead

2. 1♣ was natural - really natural 4+ suit - so the chance of a club lead is diminished

3. The ♠K was offside and we made ten tricks

[jdonn]

Yes who would ever want to be in a vulnerable game that requires they lead opener's suit and a finesse is off to go down!

[ONEferBRID]

jdonn, on Jul 6 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

Yes who would ever want to be in a vulnerable game that requires they lead opener's suit and a finesse is off to go down!

hmmm, let's see.... someone who leads the Cl K from K Q J ..... ?

[benlessard]

in a weak NT setup 3S should be played as almost forcing (17+bal, 16-5431 or more shape). So north has a clear 4S.

Its a cliche but it doesnt pay to stop at 3M in unconsted auction at imps.

[bid_em_up]

ONEferBRID, on Jul 6 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

<sarcasm on>

jdonn, on Jul 6 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

Yes who would ever want to be in a vulnerable game that requires they lead opener's suit and a finesse is off to go down!

<sarcasm off>
hmmm, let's see.... someone who leads the Cl K from K Q J ..... ?

You are completely missing the point.

[ONEferBRID]

Cascade, on Jul 6 2009, 04:16 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♣ 1♠
3♠ Pass

---

Weak No Trump system.

I'm missing the point ?
Even Cascade ( in his post # 3 ) says the 3S is limited to 17....
"with 18" they "use something else".

What makes more sense on this near perfect fit is for Opener to rebid 4S
with his 18 ( counting the doubleton distribution and the 3 bullets.
He has a stronger hand than a "mere" 3S-jump.

With the given auction, even the "law" says to stop with Responder's 5 hcp ( containing 2 J's ) and 2 doubletons... oh, and lest I forget, there are THREE TENS !

How many 17 hcp hands can you construct with 4 card support that don't have chance in hades to make 10 tricks.

Going to 4S ( for this Responder) is a losing proposition in the long run.

On the other hand, it is IMPS... no "gametry" or invite necessary,
Opener should just bid "game" himself... and then "try" to make it.

[bid_em_up]

ONEferBRID, on Jul 7 2009, 08:37 AM, said:

How many 17 hcp hands can you construct with 4 card support that don't have chance in hades to make 10 tricks.

Going to 4S ( for this Responder) is a losing proposition in the long run.

No, it is not.

For every hand you can give where 4S will go down, I can give one where it will make.

Do the IMP math. I assure you, if your opponents consistently bid game on these cards and you consistently do not, you are going to lose the majority of the time.

ONEferBRID, on Jul 6 2009, 05:47 PM, said:

Was the trump K onsides ?
If it were offside, how do you make 10 tricks with an opening Cl lead?.

ONEferBRID, on Jul 6 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

hmmm, let's see.... someone who leads the Cl K from  K Q J .....  ?

Both of these statements appear to be arguing that you do not belong in game here simply on the basis that the game might be beaten.

This is different from claiming North should pass opposite a hand that is limited to 17 hcp.

[jdonn]

benlessard, on Jul 6 2009, 11:09 PM, said:

in a weak NT setup 3S should be played as almost forcing (17+bal, 16-5431 or more shape). So north has a clear 4S.

It never hurts to read the entire thread!

[jdonn]

ONEferBRID, on Jul 6 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 6 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

Yes who would ever want to be in a vulnerable game that requires they lead opener's suit and a finesse is off to go down!

hmmm, let's see.... someone who leads the Cl K from K Q J ..... ?

LOL

[Codo]

I really wonder, why we still talk about this hand.

Justin in his wisdom said, that north should accept the invitation with every hand with 5 spades. This should settle the issue.

If you are not confessed: Change the 5. trump to the ace of diamond or the king of clubs.
Noone would pass 3 ♠ then. And the game is not better then with the actual hand.

[Cascade]

Codo, on Jul 8 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

I really wonder, why we still talk about this hand.

Justin in his wisdom said, that north should accept the invitation with every hand with 5 spades. This should settle the issue.

If you are not confessed: Change the 5. trump to the ace of diamond or the king of clubs.
Noone would pass 3 ♠ then. And the game is not better then with the actual hand.

I like the reasoning (not the bit about Justin's wisdom but the bit about changing the trump for an ace or king. I have used that in reverse in the past on occasions - "I would rather have an extra trump than an ace"