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How is this handled? After a take-out double

#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 08:49

I have learnt (and teach) that when partner doubles for take-out (or doubles negatively) Majors are the suits that should be bid. However, sometimes the opponents just won't let us have our way:

♠K7
♥T863
♦74
♣AKJ95

It goes:

1♦ X 3♦ ???

I suppose 4♦ could be taken as showing both Majors (if not, that's the bid, for sure). 4♣ looks better but then you might miss the heart fit (if there is any). 4♥ should be out of the question I suppose. 5♣ seems too one-sided, what then?

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#2 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 08:49

double
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#3 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 09:15

If I X, then what do I do over 3S? Hope partner intended X then suit? Or now he's picking his better M fearing to defend? 4C now showing I had H-interest all along? Let partner rebid 6xS?

I like 4C. It is the suit I have. And I did bid up here at the 4-level.
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#4 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 09:24

Double is wtp. 2 places to play. 4♣ over 3♠ which also shows hearts.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#5 User is offline   barryallen 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 10:03

The only concern I have is bypassing 3NT when partner may have a double stop in ♦? X should get the job done without too many issues?
bridge is never always a game of exact, for those times it's all about percentages, partner and the opponents.
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#6 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 11:22

Double is so easy. It virtually guaranties that I have 4 in one major and 4 or 5 (or maybe 6) clubs.
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Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 11:25

OleBerg, on Jun 27 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Double is so easy. It virtually guaranties that I have 4 in one major and 4 or 5 (or maybe 6) clubs.

Could also be a slightly weaker hand with 4-4 majors intending to pass partner's next bid.
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#8 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 12:17

barryallen, on Jun 27 2009, 11:03 AM, said:

The only concern I have is bypassing 3NT when partner may have a double stop in ♦? X should get the job done without too many issues?

When you are short on space and partner made a takeout double, it seems a good idea to stop worrying whether he has a double stop in their suit.
"Are you saying that LTC merits a more respectful dismissal?"
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#9 User is offline   barryallen 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 13:51

cherdanno, on Jun 27 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

barryallen, on Jun 27 2009, 11:03 AM, said:

The only concern I have is bypassing 3NT when partner may have a double stop in ♦? X should get the job done without too many issues?

When you are short on space and partner made a takeout double, it seems a good idea to stop worrying whether he has a double stop in their suit.

I must admit to the X being selfish for taking up all that space, just because as a secondary to finding a ♥ fit, it never stymied an impossible holding from partner!
bridge is never always a game of exact, for those times it's all about percentages, partner and the opponents.
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#10 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2009-June-27, 14:09

helene_t, on Jun 27 2009, 07:25 PM, said:

OleBerg, on Jun 27 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Double is so easy. It virtually guaranties that I have 4 in one major and 4 or 5 (or maybe 6) clubs.

Could also be a slightly weaker hand with 4-4 majors intending to pass partner's next bid.

I sit corrected.
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#11 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-June-28, 08:21

1m - X - 3m - X = Responsive DBL
MOST sources say this shows 4-4 in the Majors,
and asks partner to pick one . ( Partner may only
be 4-3 in the Majors--either way ).

For the present case you have enough values to bid, and with only ONE
4 card Major, as lousey as it is, that is your bid:

1D - X - 3D - 3H

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
One source did say that the Responsive DBL shows at least 4 cards in 2 of the unbid suits, so you need prior agreements.
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#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-June-28, 08:42

why do you put rules for the unnecesary?, double shows the will for partner to suggest a trump. Take out double, not much else really needs to be specified.
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#13 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2009-June-28, 09:40

ONEferBRID, on Jun 28 2009, 04:21 PM, said:

1m -  X -  3m  - X = Responsive DBL
                                MOST sources say this shows 4-4  in the Majors,
                                and asks partner to pick one . ( Partner may only
                                be 4-3 in the Majors--either way ).

For the present case you have enough values to bid, and with only ONE
4 card Major, as lousey as it is, that is your bid:

1D  -  X  -  3D  - 3H

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
One source did say that the Responsive DBL shows at least 4 cards in 2 of the unbid suits, so you need prior agreements.

Sorry if I am being a bit of an ass, but this is a forum for advanced players and experts. I don't know your "sources", but such are typically for players learning the game i.e. beginners or intermediate.

I will not disagree to a claim that some advanced players might use such sources. But it would be rather meaningless to have this forum, if the things that were discussed should simply be settled by referring to "sources".
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#14 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-June-28, 12:11

Geez..... I didn't realize the experts here don't play "standard" Responsive DBLS,
but that 1m - X - 3m - X = scattered values, bid something... anything....
and hope we don't get too high.
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#15 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2009-June-28, 13:57

ONEferBRID, on Jun 28 2009, 08:11 PM, said:

Geez..... I didn't realize the experts here don't play "standard" Responsive DBLS,...

That's why they're experts.
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


Gnasher
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#16 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-June-28, 18:47

ONEferBRID, on Jun 28 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

Geez..... I didn't realize the experts here don't play "standard" Responsive DBLS,
but that 1m - X - 3m - X = scattered values, bid something... anything....
and hope we don't get too high.

Right, much safer to just bid your Txxx suit and cross your fingers that partner doesn't have just three of it!
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#17 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-June-28, 20:30

Hanoi... please post partner's hand ( the T/O doubler ).
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#18 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2009-June-29, 17:32

Partner had:
♠Axx
♥AQJxx
♦A
♣QTxx

This was taken from a Bridge World Bidding contest, I made up the other two hands, problem is responder didn't pre-empt in the BW version, while in mine he did. I had not even thought about the responsive double, but I'm sure it's the right answer.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#19 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-June-29, 18:59

i guess that is why, when in the overcall range, we overcall.
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#20 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-June-29, 20:14

Partner had the "strong" T/O DBL ..... and Advancer can't get into trouble no matter what !
Partner is going to bid a 4H game over Advancer's ( incorrect Responsive) DBL or the correct 3H call.
And if Partner's Major's were switched, he'd bid 4S after a "Responsive" DBL
( since it ostensibly shows BOTH 4 card Majors ) and make 12 tricks
as long as Spades are no worse than 4-2 ... go figure:

Overcaller Advancer
♠A Q J x x ......... K 7
♥A x x .............. T x x x
♦A.................... x x
♣Q T x x .......... A K J 9 x

1D - DBL - 3D - 3H ( 4h and no 4s )
p - 3S(strong) - p - 4C
p - 4D - p - 4S
all pass
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