[gwnn]

I'm confused

"Everybody" knows that auctions like

1m-1M-x
1M-2m-x

show the other major, at least 4 cards, "no exceptions allowed"

Which is the lowest auction that a negative double does not systemically promise 4 card support in an unbid major?

[bill1157]

i don't think it promises the other major, because you might have a 6 card suit in the unbid minor and not enough to go 2/1.

Bill

[fromageGB]

bill1157, on Jun 22 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

i don't think it promises the other major, because you might have a 6 card suit in the unbid minor and not enough to go 2/1.

Bill

I don't think you can have it both ways. If you say you will double if you have some values and 4 cards in the other major, but also do it with a weak hand and long other suit, what do you do when opener with 4 cards in the major and a good hand jumps to game?

[fromageGB]

If your agreement is that it shows 4 cards in the unbid major, then it applies to the level you agree that negative doubles apply up to. In my partnerships this is only up to the 2 level. Above that, doubles are "values", no guarantee of shape other than "balanced", and are often passed for penalty. A distributional opener will of course bid on.

I have seen many cards saying negative doubles up to 4♠, but it seems pointless to me.

[jdonn]

Gwnn you're looking at this wrong. It shows 4 in the other major (for example), 98% of the time on the 1 level, 92% of the time on the 2 level, 80% of the time on the 3 level, 65% of the time on the 4 level, or something like that. The function has a descending slope of some kind, it isn't uniform to a point followed by a steep drop off.

All you are really asking is at what arbitrary percentage point "no exceptions allowed (except when they are)" becomes "exceptions sometimes allowed" which is not all that meaningful of a question.

[Jlall]

1D-(2C) frequently only has 1 unbid major. In fact I had 3-3 in the majors and did that yesterday heh.

[helene_t]

I like Josh's answer.

[mike777]

very helpful, useful thread, thanks.

[jdonn]

Running up your post total for no reason Mike?

[matmat]

jdonn, on Jun 22 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

The function has a descending slope of some kind, it isn't uniform to a point followed by a steep drop off.

is it differentiable?

[vuroth]

matmat, on Jun 22 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 22 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

The function has a descending slope of some kind, it isn't uniform to a point followed by a steep drop off.

is it differentiable?

lol

[mike777]

jdonn, on Jun 22 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Running up your post total for no reason Mike?

I was trying to say thankyou to the posters, esp. Jdonn, for a very helpful thread...please reset my posts to zero ty.

[the hog]

gwnn, on Jun 22 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

I'm confused

"Everybody" knows that auctions like

1m-1M-x

snipped

show the other major, at least 4 cards, "no exceptions allowed"
snipped

No! Everyone doesn't. You would no doubt be aware that there have been many discussions on this site where many people have said they play 1m (1H) x as categorically denying 4+S. The rationale being that if you have a S suit, why not bid it?

1D (2C) x may not even have a hand with one 4 card M, though this is rare of course.

By the way, I have frequnlty seen expert cards with -ve doubles through 7H. 4S is certainly the norm and, no Fromage, I don't find it pointless at all.

[mcphee]

So many players seemed to have some restricted vision with regard to a neg dble. Many feel it should show 4 cards in the other major, and 1C 1D dble to be 4-4 majors. I find this approach far too restrictive.

The facts of the matter are when your rho over-calls you want to take the opportunity to inform partner you have a reason to compete, dble is most often the only way.

[cherdanno]

jdonn, on Jun 22 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

Gwnn you're looking at this wrong. It shows 4 in the other major (for example), 98% of the time on the 1 level, 92% of the time on the 2 level, 80% of the time on the 3 level, 65% of the time on the 4 level, or something like that. The function has a descending slope of some kind, it isn't uniform to a point followed by a steep drop off.

I think there is a jump at the 3-level though. Over 1D-(3C) you won't have to double without a 4-card major very often, since when you have a suit, you can bid it. Over 1D-(3S), you cannot bid your club suit unless you are willing to bypass 3NT.
So up to 3m, I would say the negative double "shows" at least one unbid 4-card major. From 3M on, there are really no guarantees.

[bill1157]

I guess you could look at it like the take-out X. It usually shows 4 cards in the other major, but not always.

Bill