[vuroth]

Scoring: MP

1NT* 2♣** 4♥ 4♠
P ?

* 13-15
** - clubs + higher suit (DONT)

---

What should partner have?

(I have another question, but I'll wait to see if it's relevant)

V

[helene_t]

He should have spades. I don't think there is a way of asking for your second suit at the 4-level (4NT anyone?), or at the 3-level for that matter. Less sure about the two-level in case South bids.

[Gerben42]

On the 2-level, Dbl should ask partner to pass if that is his 2nd suit, and bid his 2nd suit otherwise. You will have to be sensible with auctions like

(1NT) 2♣ (2♥) Dbl
(Pass)

and not bid 3♦ with minors, but 2NT or whatever...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

undiscussed: lots of spades
discussed: spades and clubs, at least 5-5, 6-5 more likely.

my bid: Pass

With kind regards
Marlowe

[vuroth]

I'll make a tiny change. Does this change things?

Scoring: MP

P 1NT* 2♣** 4♥
4♠ P ?

* 13-15
** - clubs + higher suit (DONT)

---

[P_Marlowe]

vuroth, on Jun 16 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

I'll make a tiny change.  Does this change things?

Scoring: MP

P 1NT* 2♣** 4♥
4♠ P ?

* 13-15
** - clubs + higher suit (DONT)

---

The change strengthens the case for spades and clubs,
since partner could have opened with a preempt in spades,
which he did not.

The only reason to start bidding on the 4 level is, that he
discovered a good fit, and the only suit we promised at
the moment was clubs.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

vuroth, on Jun 17 2009, 12:11 AM, said:

I'll make a tiny change. Does this change things?

yes this is 1000 % billions of black cards. (At least 8, normally 9+...)

[vuroth]

Scoring: MP

P 1NT 2♣ 4♥
P P P

1NT = 13-15
2C = C+higher

---

Here's the hand that prompted my questions. Opponents make 4♥, but we make 4♠.

Vulnerable, I didn't feel like sticking my nose in at the 4 level with such a weak hand. It did occur to me, though, that for a passed hand 4♠ might imply some tolerance for one of the minors (since I'm unlikely to have a single suited spade hand). I'm glad to see that others felt the same way.

I had been assuming that it was "impossible" for partner to have ♣/♥, but I guess that's not strictly true.

In any case, thanks.

V

[hanp]

vuroth, on Jun 17 2009, 07:25 AM, said:

I had been assuming that it was "impossible" for partner to have ♣/♥, but I guess that's not strictly true.

You have 2 hearts, RHO opened 1NT so has at least 2, LHO showed at least 6, which gives partner at most 3.

[vuroth]

hanp, on Jun 17 2009, 07:29 AM, said:

vuroth, on Jun 17 2009, 07:25 AM, said:

I had been assuming that it was "impossible" for partner to have ♣/♥, but I guess that's not strictly true.

You have 2 hearts, RHO opened 1NT so has at least 2, LHO showed at least 6, which gives partner at most 3.

Good point.

So why can't I have 5152 for my 4♠ bid? (Again, assuming I'm a passed hand) If partner had ♣/♦, she can bid 5♣, and I can correct to 5♦.

[Codo]

You may show a 51xy hand with 4 Spade.
OTOH, how do you show a hand with say 8 spades?

You cannot show both with one 4 Spade bid.

I think with 51xy you should play take out doubles. Partner shall pass with hearts (impossible), bid spades with spades and clubs and clubs with the minors.

In this case you miss the penalty double, but imho this is a smaller loss

[vuroth]

Codo, on Jun 17 2009, 08:05 AM, said:

You may show a 51xy hand with 4 Spade.
OTOH, how do you show a hand with say 8 spades?

You cannot show both with one 4 Spade bid.

I think with 51xy you should play take out doubles. Partner shall pass with hearts (impossible), bid spades with spades and clubs and clubs with the minors.

In this case you miss the penalty double, but imho this is a smaller loss

I think it's the difference between

P 1NT 2C 4H
4S

and

1NT 2C 4H 4S

In the first case, I suspect that it's clear that I don't have 8 spades, at least white vs red, because the chances of my passing with a single-suited spades hand are quite low.

In the second case, I agree that 4S is more ambiguous, and I might very well have a single-suited spade hand.

Having double instead of 4S in both cases to show a 2-suited hand would be nice, but do I really want to give up the penalty double of opponent's heart preempt?

[Codo]

I thought is was clear that as a a passed hand 4 spade is surely pass or correct. I was just talking about the case where you are not a passed hand.

You need (always) to decide which hand you would like to show and which hand you cannot show. You have limited bids for (nearly) umlimeted hands.

Take this situation:
(1NT) 2♣ (4♥)

You can show a great club fit and even a one suiter in Diamonds easily.

So which hands do you need to show:
1. I have nothing to say- no good fit, no penalty, not much HCPs. This is easy, you pass.
2. I have a penalty double of 4 Hearts.
3. I have values but no clear goal. I think 4 Heart may fail, but maybe 4 spade or 5 club is better.
4. I want to defend with 4 spade or 5 club.
5. I have to play spades, because I have 8 of them.

There are surely more possible hands, but just these 5 kind of hands are impossible to show on a low level.
So you need an agreement with your partner which hand you want to show and which you cannot show.
To decide what you have to show and what you cannot show depends on the frequency of these hands and if there is a way to recover later in case you cannot show it now.

In my opinion there are seldom opponents who bid 4 HEart to make and where I have a pure penalty double, so I would give up on the penalty orrientated hands and take my 50s a trick. I will win on the 51xy hands, because I can find our best fit on the lowest level and on the onesuiters in spade which I can show by bidding them.

But taste may differ. And it does matter less whether or not your agreements are the best agreements. It is much better to have non perfect agreements then no agreement.

[helene_t]

vuroth, on Jun 17 2009, 02:25 PM, said:

Having double instead of 4S in both cases to show a 2-suited hand would be nice, but do I really want to give up the penalty double of opponent's heart preempt?

People rarely preempt opposite their partner's strong notrump opening.

Here it was a 13-15 1NT opening. But DONT is a method designed to compete for partscores. Against weak 1NT, most people prefer a method that is more suitable for exploring game.

That said, without discussion I would take dbl as penalties. Then it's indeed a problem whether 4♠ should show spades only or spades+clubs.

[TimG]

vuroth, on Jun 17 2009, 07:25 AM, said:

♠KJT95
♥A
♦K6
♣KQT85

How good do you have to be to start with 2N instead of a non-forcing 2♣? I can understand this hand not being quite good enough, but it is close, isn't it?