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I guess the other way of putting it for Hamdi's benefit is that yes there may be some (a few) hands that are 5/4 in hearts/clubs where 3C is a make and 2H and 2N are not - typically where opener is 2/4 in the same suits. However this is a) quite a small target to aim at in terms of constructing a system and b] 2N will often be better when opener turns out to have been 2/3 instead. Thus reserving 3C, on this sequence, as forcing makes a lot more sense.
Nick
Reality check
#21
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Posted 2009-June-11, 18:41
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
#22
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Posted 2009-June-11, 19:25
Source : BBO today
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
Scoring: MP
We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak. Quoted by Albert Einstein.
#23
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Posted 2009-June-11, 19:34
H_KARLUK, on Jun 12 2009, 08:25 AM, said:
Source : BBO today
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
Scoring: MP
Pass of course. No super accept.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#24
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Posted 2009-June-11, 20:32
H_KARLUK, on Jun 12 2009, 01:25 AM, said:
Source : BBO today
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
Scoring: MP
For sure you don't have GF values. But you're missing the point. Change the ♥J to the A and now you do - would you want to be passed out in 3♣? Or are you prepared to bid something like 4♣ with that hand and waste a lot of bidding room?
The vast majority of people - including people like me who usually play Acol (for the cynics read, "bid what you think you can make") tend to regard the 3♣ bid on this sequence as forcing.
Nick
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
#25
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Posted 2009-June-11, 22:14
H_KARLUK, on Jun 11 2009, 08:25 PM, said:
Source : BBO today
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
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Sorry, but I don't understand your point.
Bridge bidding is a set of compromises. It is impossible to cater, accurately, to all hand types. On the 1=5=2=5 7 count, obviously it would be nice to be able to show both suits and stop in 3♣ or 3♥ when right.
But, experience, over 70+ years of bridge by thousands of good players and millions of not so good has shown that it is MORE useful to use the sequence of transfer then new suit as GF. (Note to nitpickers, I know transfers are a relatively recent development).
So a good player, using these methods, would transfer and then either overbid (by making a gf) or pass...either needs some luck to be the optimum spot. Too bad. Only fools think that bidding can be perfected.
So, Hamdi, in STANDARD bidding, the transfer than new suit is GF. You are welcome to play it otherwise... do it long enough and I suspect that you will learn what others already have. But in standard, it is gf, and all of your examples as to why you think it shouldn't be won't change that reality.
One of the hallmarks of the improving player is a willingness to listen to and learn from better players.... one of the hallmarks of the crank is to demonstrate a lack of knowledge and then to get angry with those who point out one's errors...which category do you want to be seen as representing?
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#26
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Posted 2009-June-11, 22:54
H_KARLUK, on Jun 11 2009, 08:25 PM, said:
Source : BBO today
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> 8 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> J8743 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> 72 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> KQJ62 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->
Partner opens 1NT (15-17 balanced). Say righty passed. You did a transfer bid to hearts. Partner completes it. Now what ? Pass or 3♣ ? Sorry but I don't think South has GF values.
<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> 8 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> J8743 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> 72 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> KQJ62 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->
now 3c...natural and game force.
I assume 2h denies super accept.
I take 100% blame.
otoh ..i really think this is far from beginner deal.