[mikestar]

Another consideration: we're assumi'ng that they are likely to bid 4H, but what if it's our hand and partner has long hearts. 1D is likely to work better in this case.

[Chamaco]

Chamaco, on May 26 2004, 11:52 AM, said:

The_Hog, on May 26 2004, 09:52 AM, said:

The ideas you express are typical of those who do not appreciate the value of Major suits in limited hands.

Sorry, but needs more explanation for me.

I am not experienced as you all folks , but I thought that playing Precision, the hand is limited anyway in HCP.

1) So (still thinking aloud... ) my evaluation should not be based on HCP but on playing strength.
As I posted elsewhere, I think that my ODR is as high as it could be, and I will bid 4S on any opps bid.

2) (Still thinking aloud... ) My only fear is that bidding 1D and ONLY then showing spades is not preemptive enough and will make it easier to opps to compete at the 5 level.

3) (Still thinking aloud... ) With a 6-5 bagger and worse ODR ratio, say ♠ATxxx+♦Axxxxx+Ax♣, I'd open 1 spade, this hand has a much worse playing trick potential, and has more defensive tricks.

----- FROM ANOTHER POST --

4) most people would open the hand 1S, fearing a jammed auction...
--- cut ---
My personal consideration I still believe that this hand can bid (spades) at the 4 level on his own after opening 1D and opps jamming the bidding:
Using ZAR: 34 zar points + whatever adjustment if there is a fit
Using LTC: 4.5 losers
If pard has nothing to contribute, they have at least game or slam on.
But then again, this is probably one of the many reason why I am not an expert !

5) Sacrificing at the 5 level
I am still struggling with eveluating my decision whether to bid on or not at 5 spades.
I chose to bid for the following: I have no defense at all, and opps have shown a double fit fot hearts and clubs, there must be more trciks than trumps around.
Also, a long suit like my diams gives additional potential for squeeze plays.
If one of my Kings were an Ace, I'll think twice before bidding 5S, but as it is, I bid.
Also, note that as it is, 5 hearts for opps is laydown unless diams are 2-2 AND we find a defense including diamond lead and a club ruff in return, and cashing the other diamonds.
With any other layout or play, E-W will lose 1 or 2 diamonds, draw trumps, and discard spade losers (3-2 split) on clubs.

Could some expert comment on my reasoning that led me to bid 1D first and then to bid 5S as a sort of semi-sacrifice ?

I'd like to know if and what was wrong in my thought processes, thanks !

[mikestar]

I like your thought processes until the final bid. You have shown your hand and partner will have another chance.

Let's consider Law of total tricks. To bid 5 over 5, you need 21 total trumps or compensating distribution. You have an 8 card spade fit, they actually have a 9 acard heart fit. But let's assume they have 10, add a trick for both sides having a double fit, and another for your void--this is still only 20 total tricks. Let's look at some scores:

They make We make Score for defending 5h Score for 5S
12 8 -680 -800
11 9 -650 -500
10 10 +100 -300
9 11 +500 +650
8 12 +800 +680

These figures assume partner will double them if they have 9 or fewer tricks and they won't double you if you have the balance of power. Not necessarily valid assumptions--but not outlandish, either. Note how badly you lose if the tricks are split 10-20.

And this assumes 20 total tricks--if there are 19 (not unreasonable given they have a 9 card heart fit rather than the 10 we assumed), the case for pass is even clearer.

As Larry Cohen says "The five level belongs to the opponents."

[Chamaco]

mikestar, on May 26 2004, 10:43 PM, said:

I like your thought processes until the final bid. You have shown your hand and partner will have another chance.

Thanks Mike, I was suspecting that the final 5S bid was greedy.
This is a confirmation, and I liked your arguments

[the hog]

Hi Chamaco, as you can see there are varied opinions.
For what its worth, I will summarise my views for you.

* I have a hand with very good playing strength, but comparatively few high
cards.

* Because of my extreme shape, I think there will be a lot of bidding on this hand.

* The most likely - note I said *most* likely, game for us is 4S

*In an attempt to show my prime feature, (the S suit in my view), I will open 1S

* I am hoping this will - 1) allow my partner to raise immediately 2) shut out their H suit if they have it - this may well happen if he can fine a raise, hopefully to the 3 level

* I am quite happy to hide the D suit if my partner has a S fit. The D suit is self sufficient and does not need fillers from partner, (thought the A would be nice). Hiding the D suit may well help me in the auction and the play. Bridge is a game for 4 players; unfortunately the opposition frequently jam things up. The best tactical bid is not necessarily the BEST BID.
Incidentally Chamaco, this is one reason I no longer play relay except on line with Richard - it is the best method, but perhaps not the best in a 4 handed game.

* You will find Ben making a distiction between 2/1 and Precision. He says he would not bid this way in 2/1 as his partner would expect more in terms of points. Fair comment, but I still open 1M for the reasons I outlined above.

If I had a stronger hand, I would be happy to open 1D and the reverse into S and bid S again to show 6-5. With a stronger hand I would fear competition less and the prospects for slam are higher, so it is important for me to describe my hand accurately.

With regard to sacrificing:

I will certainly admit that in your auction you may be better placed now than I would have been, as you have shown you 6-5 shape. This is the point however - YOU have shown your 6-5 shape. Your partner knows more about your hand than you do about his. Who do you think should make a decision to sacrifice then? It makes sense that the person who knows more takes that decision. This is a little simplistic as many other factors enter into this, but it should give you a starting point for further thought.

One final point. I don't believe that I will ALWAYS get the best possible result. However I do believe I will get the best result possible more often than not.

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Ron

[Flame]

I take it back, should open 1s

[Chamaco]

The_Hog, on May 26 2004, 11:33 PM, said:

With regard to sacrificing:

I will certainly admit that in your auction you may be better placed now than I would have been, as you have shown you 6-5 shape. This is the point however - YOU have shown your 6-5 shape. Your partner knows more about your hand than you do about his. Who do you think should make a decision to sacrifice then? It makes sense that the person who knows more takes that decision. This is a little simplistic as many other factors enter into this, but it should give you a starting point for further thought.

Thanks Ron.

I still try to recall my thought process for sacrificing and it was more or less something like the following:

1) it is true I described my shape (6-5), but my pard does not know *within the boundary of these shape* the ODR of my hand. My hand is worthless in defense, *after opps showed a double fit*. It is not unrealisitic to expect that my hand can bring *at most* one defensive trick, with heart likely to run.

2) I tried to figure out a hand by pard that could defeat 5 hearts but I could not. Maybe the key of the hands are the clubs and pard maty have a trick there, yet in figuring out the possible hands I evaluated that in most cases, if pard had a trick for me, either 5!s was a good sac or it made...
But again, that's why I am not an expert ... (I wish ZAR points could fix this for me but I doubt... hehe)

[keylime]

To substantiate Ron's view, the great expert Marshall Miles in his text "Competitive Bidding for the 21st Century" states this:

"Two-thirds of all contracts bid in competition is in the major."

I could never think of bidding 1♦ on that hand, especially if using variable NTs. Get the boss suit into play, own it, and be happier for it.

[inquiry]

This hand has provoked a lot of discussion, but it comes down to this, swap the spade Ace for the smallest spade in south;s hand (15 hcp), what do you open playing precision? I beat you will open 1♣. Now remove the spade queen, down to 13 hcp, what do you open (♠AK987 ♥xx ♦KQJT9x)? Anyone tempted at 1♣ again. I would. So, in fact the hand, as drawn with its 11 hcp is close to a maximum non-1♣ opener.

As far as opening 1♦, this is not done to hide the ♠ suit. IT is to allow you to highlight it. Because when you bid it again, it draws a road map for your partner. If you were to reverse ♠ and ♥ on this hand, I would open 1♥, but I open 1♦ precisely because I have a rebid-plan. I plan on bidding up to 4♠. If the majors were reversed, what would you do over 4♠? Now you would have no plan bidding 5♥ would just have to be wrong, as partner would have to take preference at the six level. And I anticipate a lot of bidding on this hand, which is what occurred.

Rules are made to lead the hopeless, helpless, thoughtless. Each hand has its own little nuances. This one, the quality of the diamond suit, the nice spots in teh spade suit all argue for normal, long suit first. Followed by bidding out the distribution. I even object to the characterization of this powerhopuse as a minimum, it is far from a minimum.

ben

[the hog]

(♠AK987 ♥xx ♦KQJT9x)? Anyone tempted at 1♣ again.

No! Prefer not to open 1C with shaded high card requirements, regardless of playing strength. Been there, done that, paid the price!

One purpose of playing a big C system is that you can jump around and not show overwhelming HCP strength - a crucial factor when partner decides to bid on - possibly as a sacrifice, or to penalise the opponents. Pd won't be happy to find you with these cards if you open 1C and he doubles a high level contract.

[whereagles]

Just a small comment... I'm adept of opening 1♣ on a good 6-5, despite having only 14-15 hcp. The point is hcp are a bad evaluation method for long two-suiters, so some judgement should be exercised.

I'm not alone on this. CC Wei also advocates it, and he shows a hand where Jeff Meckstroth opened 1♣ on

♠ AKxxxx
♥ x
♦ AKxxx
♣ x

reaching an easy 7♠ because he quickly found out pard had the correct fillers.

As for relay precision, I played that for two years in international matches against opponents who frequently bid on nothing (or even less, lol). Though the 1♣ auctions did sometimes get crowded, when comparing scores, it happened again and again that we bid and made a slam or two that opponents missed, especially those in the minor suits. From experience, I say that relay precision works well in practice, though it requires homework, a steady partner and constant bidding practice.

[the hog]

On the other side of the coin, I well remember a hand on which my partner opened a chunky 14 count with a 15+ C.

After relaying the hand out fully and finding every honor card in his hand, the only suit left was x ?x suit in his hand opposite AKQx in mine. At this stage I was too high to ask for for the J in that suit, but as I had a full count of his hand -14 points exactly, I bid the grand "knowing" he had to have the J. He didn't and that was one off.

He never shaded his openings again.

[whereagles]

How come he opened 1♣ and you were asking the questions? Was that one of the sequences where a minimum balanced 1♣ opener passed control to pard?

[the hog]

Reverse relay!

[whereagles]

Ok. What was opener's hand, then?

[keylime]

FYI, the Mrs and I only open 14 HCP forcing clubs if both five card suits have tha AK in them, with 10 and 9 in one/both suits. Otherwise, the ACBL gets really testy about HCPs due to the paragraph about "artificial and conventional responses and rebids" over strong openings (15+).