[CayugaGuy]

---

The BIDDING:

SOUTH opens 1 HEART. NORTH bids 2 DIAMONDS. SOUTH raises to 3 DIAMONDS and NORTH closes the auction with 4 HEARTS.

Partner leads the KING of CLUBS.

South is an expert declarer.

Do you see a legitimate way of defeating 4 HEARTS?

[mtvesuvius]

Sit back and watch declarer set himself, after all, South is an "expert".

[655321]

I guess the answer you want is to overtake the club and switch to a low 'singleton' diamond, hoping declarer is 2542. He will then take the spade finesse to get rid of a club loser, planning to lose 1 club, 1 heart and 1 diamond ruff.

[jonottawa]

655321, on May 19 2009, 02:21 AM, said:

I guess the answer you want is to overtake the club and switch to a low 'singleton' diamond, hoping declarer is 2542. He will then take the spade finesse to get rid of a club loser, planning to lose 1 club, 1 heart and 1 diamond ruff.

Good answer!

This also works if he was 1-4-6-2 and was playing canape.

[sfi]

Won't the expert declarer ask why you didn't cash the second club trick before switching to the diamond - particularly since you have the club ace and can guarantee to be able to win trick 2? He shouldn't really fall for that against competent defenders.

[pirate22]

1 ht opener can be A 1/6/4/2 but where is his points
can be B 1/6/5/1 but still where his points
C 1/6/4/2 " " " " "
D 2/6/4/1
obiviously highly distributional at least 6 hts to J10
and ace spades

so i over take pards K cl and play 5 diamonds,
to give pard a ruff instant-- or later when i win ht ace pump
another diamond ILL PLUMB FOR DECL HOLDING "B"

[Trumpace]

sfi, on May 18 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

Won't the expert declarer ask why you didn't cash the second club trick before switching to the diamond - particularly since you have the club ace and can guarantee to be able to win trick 2?  He shouldn't really fall for that against competent defenders.

Why can't east, with the ♥A and singleton diamond, be planning to put pard in with the Club Queen to get a ♦ ruff?

[655321]

sfi, on May 18 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

Won't the expert declarer ask why you didn't cash the second club trick before switching to the diamond - particularly since you have the club ace and can guarantee to be able to win trick 2?  He shouldn't really fall for that against competent defenders.

How would a competent defender expect to get his ruff if he cashed a second club?

---

OK, too slow, it has already been pointed out.

This post has been edited by 655321: 2009-May-18, 21:25

[sfi]

Trumpace, on May 19 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

sfi, on May 18 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

Won't the expert declarer ask why you didn't cash the second club trick before switching to the diamond - particularly since you have the club ace and can guarantee to be able to win trick 2?  He shouldn't really fall for that against competent defenders.

Why can't east, with the ♥A and singleton diamond, be planning to put pard in with the Club Queen to get a ♦ ruff?

Even so, it must be better to play A-K-J of spades planning to discard the club on the third round. It's the same 50% shot if a ruff is being threatened, and it goes down a trick less when it loses.

The one thing that declarer knows when they don't cash the second club is that the HA is not in the same hand as the long diamonds. Either diamonds are 2-2 and the contract is cold, or they are 3-1 and he needs to find the SQ in the right place.

Edit: 3-2 or 4-1 - can't count

[jonottawa]

sfi, on May 19 2009, 03:26 AM, said:

Trumpace, on May 19 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

sfi, on May 18 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

Won't the expert declarer ask why you didn't cash the second club trick before switching to the diamond - particularly since you have the club ace and can guarantee to be able to win trick 2?  He shouldn't really fall for that against competent defenders.

Why can't east, with the ♥A and singleton diamond, be planning to put pard in with the Club Queen to get a ♦ ruff?

Even so, it must be better to play A-K-J of spades planning to discard the club on the third round. It's the same 50% shot if a ruff is being threatened, and it goes down a trick less when it loses.

The one thing that declarer knows when they don't cash the second club is that the HA is not in the same hand as the long diamonds. Either diamonds are 2-2 and the contract is cold, or they are 3-1 and he needs to find the SQ in the right place.

Hole, digging, etc.

[CayugaGuy]

NO ONE is there yet:

NO EXPERT DECLARER will play your partner for the finessable SPADE QUEEN if you fail to cash BOTH your club winners. Why would he think you would let him take a discard when all you have to do is cash them on the reel? Thus declarer KNOWS you have the SPADE QUEEN if you shift to a diamond.

So, if declarer KNOWS you have the SPADE QUEEN (and he will if you shift to a diamond).......and thinks you will use partners club Q as an ENTRY - there *is* a defense that will work......

And it DOES involve a diamond shift. But HOW will this help? You are NOT going to ruff a diamond - nor (if you defend correctly) are you going to win 2 club tricks.

(Note: You KNOW declarer must be 2-2 in the blacks - otherwise the hand is cold no matter what you do - since you either will win only 1 club trick - or declarer will ruff his losing club in dummy (or throw it on the spade K.)

[Trumpace]

CayugaGuy, on May 18 2009, 10:33 PM, said:

NO EXPERT DECLARER will play your partner for the finessable SPADE QUEEN if you fail to cash BOTH your club winners. Why would he think you would let him take a discard when all you have to do is cash them on the reel? Thus declarer KNOWS you have the SPADE QUEEN if you shift to a diamond.

I don't understand why the failure to cash the second club pinpoints the ♠Q. ♥A, yes probably, but ♠Q?

In some cases, the club suit is the only communication suit for defense to get a ♦ ruff. You do agree that declarer can play the spades two ways and thus has to guess, right?

[jonottawa]

No he doesn't know that I have the ♠Q. A hand has already been posted in which I'd defend like that without it.

If I have:

96532 / A3 / 3 / AJ532

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

[CayugaGuy]

Failure to play a second round of clubs DEFINITELY puts the spade Queen in YOUR hand. Otherwise, your shift to a diamond before taking the second club GIVES DECLARER A CHANCE TO FINESSE THE SPADE QUEEN (if it is missing) OR lets him pitch his losing club if HE has it. So your failure to cash the second club can only mean that YOU are looking at the 3rd round spade winner - since otherwise your shift would be foolish. It would give the contract away on a platter.

But - and this is a hint - you WANT declarer to know you have the spade queen. The entire defense depends on it.

[CayugaGuy]

jonottawa, on May 18 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

No he doesn't know that I have the ♠Q.  A hand has already been posted in which I'd defend like that without it.

If I have:

96532 / A3 / 3 / AJ532

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

Um - No.

If he has the first hand, he wins and drives out the trump Ace. Since you do NOT have a singleton diamond, you get no ruff.
If he has the second hand, why does he have to 'find' the spade queen? He knows you have it - and he has no spade loser in any event.

[Trumpace]

CayugaGuy, on May 18 2009, 11:08 PM, said:

jonottawa, on May 18 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

No he doesn't know that I have the ♠Q.  A hand has already been posted in which I'd defend like that without it.

If I have:

96532 / A3 / 3 / AJ532

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

Um - No.

If he has the first hand, he loses 2 clubs and a trump.
If he has the second hand, why does he have to 'find' the spade queen? He knows you have it - and he has no spade loser in any event.

There are hands with East, where he does not hold the ♠Q and the only correct defense is to shift to a ♦ at trick 2.

For instance: Hand 1 show by jonottawa. I suggest you look at it again. Isn't not cashing the second club critical to defense and in fact the contract is down 1?

[CayugaGuy]

Trumpace, on May 18 2009, 11:13 PM, said:

CayugaGuy, on May 18 2009, 11:08 PM, said:

jonottawa, on May 18 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

No he doesn't know that I have the ♠Q.  A hand has already been posted in which I'd defend like that without it.

If I have:

96532 / A3 / 3 / AJ532

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

Um - No.

If he has the first hand, he loses 2 clubs and a trump.
If he has the second hand, why does he have to 'find' the spade queen? He knows you have it - and he has no spade loser in any event.

No idea what you are talking about.

There are hands with East, where he does not hold the ♠Q and the only correct defense is to shift to a ♦ at trick 2.

For instance: Hand 1 show by jonottawa. I suggest you look at it again. Isn't not cashing the second club critical to defense and in fact the contract is down 1?

Yes - jonottawa's defense works with his theorietical hand.

Unfortunately, you do NOT have a singleton diamond - so your defense will not work, now will it?

You do NOT hold jonottawa's theoretical hand - so his theoretical shift to the singleton diamond fails.

[Trumpace]

CayugaGuy, on May 18 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

Trumpace, on May 18 2009, 11:13 PM, said:

CayugaGuy, on May 18 2009, 11:08 PM, said:

jonottawa, on May 18 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

No he doesn't know that I have the ♠Q.  A hand has already been posted in which I'd defend like that without it.

If I have:

96532 / A3 / 3 / AJ532

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

I am winning the first ♣ and switching to a ♦ and if declarer has

A / JT987 / KQJ2 / 974

Down he goes ...

and if he's

Ax / JT987 / KQJ2 / xx

He's got to find the ♠Q

Um - No.

If he has the first hand, he loses 2 clubs and a trump.
If he has the second hand, why does he have to 'find' the spade queen? He knows you have it - and he has no spade loser in any event.

No idea what you are talking about.

There are hands with East, where he does not hold the ♠Q and the only correct defense is to shift to a ♦ at trick 2.

For instance: Hand 1 show by jonottawa. I suggest you look at it again. Isn't not cashing the second club critical to defense and in fact the contract is down 1?

Yes - jonottawa's defense works with his theorietical hand.

Unfortunately, you do NOT have a singleton diamond - so your defense will not work, now will it?

You do NOT hold jonottawa's theoretical hand - so his theoretical shift to the singleton diamond fails.

Don't care if the defense works or not.

All this proves is that it is not 100% clear to an EXPERT declarer that East has the ♠Q. Right?

[jonottawa]

So anyway, I think the upshot is that you're supposed to give your partner a ♦ ruff after he revokes on the 3rd round of ♠ and pitches a ♦ and then pitches his last ♦ when you continue ♠.

That's how you beat the hand CAYUGA-STYLE.

[CayugaGuy]

If you routinely engage in defenses that have no chance of succeeding, then the expert declarer really doesn;t have to put much thought into your defense plays, now does he/she?



The expert will assume that you are trying to defeat the hand - and that you therefore hold a hand that in some way might reflect that possibility.

Given ottawa's example hand, the spade queen is irrelevant to the defense and play, since declarer has no choices whatsoever.

But to use that same defense with the example hand would be suicide.

So declarer (an expert( is going to assume that you hold the spade queen - unless the hands are such that the location of the spade queen is irrelevant (as in ittawa's example).

Who would an expert fret or concern themself over conditions that do not matter? Such as the example hand? In all hands WHERE THE DEFENSE MATTERS, they will place you with the Spade Queen. All other examples are meaningless.

Just my .02.....