[benlessard]

1Nt-------2C
2S--------???

do you prefer to use 4C as ace asking and 4Nt as quant

4C as splinter and 4Nt as quant

4C as splinter and 4Nt ace asking



1NT------2H
2S--------???

Same question
(note here that 4H transfer followed by 4Nt is available but assume it show a H void)


Also what is "standard" ?

[Stephen Tu]

Bridge World Standard is use 3 other major as showing fit, slam try. 4m is undefined but presumably splinter in this scheme.

But "Baze" is also very popular, since books by Goldman & Hardy have popularized it. Here 4c = ace (or key card) asking, 4d = quant slam try with fit, 3OM = splinter somewhere, next step to find out where.

4nt ace asking popular among beginners/ints/people who have played this way forever having mislearned from others like them instead of a book. Playable I suppose, but gets them in trouble when playing with people who have learned properly.

[inquiry]

benlessard, on May 12 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

1Nt-------2C
2S--------???

do you prefer to use 4C as ace asking and 4Nt as quant

4C as splinter and 4Nt as quant

4C as splinter and 4Nt ace asking



1NT------2H
2S--------???

Same question
(note here that 4H transfer followed by 4Nt is available but assume it show a H void)

I prefer 4NT as quatnitative and 4@C as splinter. To use blackwood, I have to slow down for one round... and bid the other major now as slam try agreeing the major partner bid. I can then follow this up with 4NT as blackwood.

Quote

1NT------2H
2S--------???

Same question
(note here that 4H transfer followed by 4Nt is available but assume it show a H void)

Can't help you with this one. Playing 1N-4H-4S-4NT shows heart void is too far out there for me. That is rkcb for me, I am not sacraficing that to show a heart void, and 1NT-2h-2s-4N is too valuable as quantitative to give up.

[gnasher]

Hands where it's right to ask for keycards without prior investigation are rare, because on most hands you also need to establish whether you have twelve tricks and the controls to enable you take them. When such a hand occurs, you always pretend to investigate for one round and then ask for keycards.

So no, it's not necessary, but whether you should play one of these bids as RKC depends on whether you have a better use for it.

4♣ in both auctions is obviously more useful as a consultative action such as a splinter, second suit or cue bid. Nobody has a good enough response structure to be able to say that 4C is best used as ace-asking.

I would usually have a way to show a balanced slam try at a low level, in which case 2♣ then 4NT would be redundant in a natural sense and I'd use it as RKC. If I didn't have this alternative, 2♣ then 4NT would have to be natural.

In some partnerships I wouldn't have another way to show a 5332 slam try, so I'd use 2♥ then 4NT as natural.

[Hanoi5]

4C as cue-bid, 4NT as quant

[Trinidad]

benlessard, on May 12 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

1Nt-------2C
2S--------???

do you prefer to use 4C as ace asking and 4Nt as quant

4C as splinter and 4Nt as quant

4C as splinter and 4Nt ace asking
?

I play 4♣ as a splinter and 4NT as quantitative. But I do have a method to show the fit and force to game on hands without small singletons.

Quote

1NT------2H
2S--------???

Same question
(note here that 4H transfer followed by 4Nt is available but assume it show a H void)

I play 4♣ as a splinter and 4NT as quantitative. Again, I think it is important to be able to show a GF hand without shortness. In a vanilla system you could do that with 1NT-3♠. In a complex system, you can use something funky.

Quote

Also what is "standard" ?

I assume G..... is "standard".

Rik

[gnasher]

Where I come from, standard is for 4♣ to be a splinter and 4NT to be natural, in both auctions.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on May 13 2009, 05:24 AM, said:

4♣ in both auctions is obviously more useful as a consultative action such as a splinter, second suit or cue bid. Nobody has a good enough response structure to be able to say that 4C is best used as ace-asking.

Justin was the first to point out to me that it's a great improvement to reverse the minor suit bids in "Baze", so 4♣ would be a (usually) balanced slam invitation with a fit, and 4♦ would be keycard. Obviously the extra space is more useful over the quantitative action.

[ArtK78]

Stephen Tu, on May 12 2009, 10:10 PM, said:

Bridge World Standard is use 3 other major as showing fit, slam try. 4m is undefined but presumably splinter in this scheme.

But "Baze" is also very popular, since books by Goldman & Hardy have popularized it. Here 4c = ace (or key card) asking, 4d = quant slam try with fit, 3OM = splinter somewhere, next step to find out where.

4nt ace asking popular among beginners/ints/people who have played this way forever having mislearned from others like them instead of a book. Playable I suppose, but gets them in trouble when playing with people who have learned properly.

I play the method referred to as "Baze." This is the first time I have seen a name attached to the method.

[benlessard]

I think having a direct keycard is rather unnecessary.

1- i dont remember last time ive wanted to ask for keycard right at turn 2.

2 - most of the time a splinter or a 2nd suit is available and is a better bid.

3- If you really need to ask for keycard you can always make a fake splinter and bid 4nt afterward. (safer than bid a fake 2nd suit and see partner raise the 2nd suit) You ll play at the 5 level instead of the 4 level but if your hand is strong enough to ask for A directly you shoulndt go down too often.


IMO in order of importance in these auction ...

splinter
2nd suit
voids (rare but the difference between a stiff and a void is too huge to ignore imo)
quant with no fit
quant with fit
keycard.


Quant with fit hand you can bid a fake second suit and come back in trumps. Its not perfect but in practice it never backfired for me.

[dake50]

Which slam types do you target to make those auctions easier? Thus leaving others as problems to explore.

I like 5-5's easy(include my 5 with partner's 5) --generally 2-suits known solid + side controls bid up. That leaves bal power, fit with ruffs, long running suit with side controls as problems for exploring auctions.

So the answer to what 4C/4NT means is what's left after discussing what other bids before would show. If I burn space with either, what hand types have been denied?

[hanp]

With one partners I play that 4C is RKC, with one I play that 4D is RKC.

[dake50]

My Rant: why such concern about 'gimmick bids' when they should be ONLY those types not handled well by 'standard operating procedure' bids?

In general, do many bloggers notice a "We don't have well-discussed bidding system. Can you help us use this gimmick instead?"