[helene_t]

"All undos accepted ...."

Sounds like a very informal tourney. Presumably that multi issue hadn't been thought about.

I could understand if some people from ACBL land would like not to have multi if BSCs are not allowed in general - after all it is hard to see the logic in allowing a 2♦ showing either hearts or spades if one cannot play, say, a 2♣ opening showing either hearts or diamonds.

Anyway, sounds weird that "Just a few rules....Announce system and carding at each round change" implicitly means "no multi" - I would take it as "anything goes". In some countries one can assume a particular set of restrictions to apply by default, but in an international setting it is not the case. And on BBO, the default is "anything goes" if nothing else is anounced.

[shaztaz]

Multi isn't even hard to defend against. Please don't insult the intelligence of average juniiors by assuming we can't deal with it. =)

Plus, have mercy on us poor ACBL members who can't ever get to play or practice defending against multi in most of our tournaments! Don't disallow it in even MORE places! I never get to defend against it since hardly anyone plays it, even in the events where it is permitted. This is not surprising since most people don't enjoy having to practice two different methods to play in different events and so they just go with the one that is permitted everywhere. Or alternatively, so few people in the regular events ever get exposed to multi that they often haven't got an informed opinion on the issue. I figure maybe more ACBL members would be playing multi if it was allowed and if they were more exposed to it and knew of it as an alternative. But that's beside the point of this thread and I apologise for the digression.

However, the same is true for aspiring juniors. Maybe by getting exposed to this convention they will become interested in learning and playing it themselves. Shielding people from a method is no way to go about stuff. Playing a convention yourself gives you valuable insight into defending against it so even if afterwards you decide against continuing to play it, you'll be better prepared to deal with it if it is used against you.

I really don't think we juniors need to be shielded from a commonly used convention in most of the world by the authorities. The restrictions detract from the amount of fun everyone could be having!

A question for those who live in countries where multi is commonly played. I'm actually curious what the usual way to deal with multi is. Is there a common defensc or some generally known method that a, say reasonably experienced European player, can expect a pick-up partner of similar skill to know and play with little to no discussion? It seems reasonably likely that this would be the case. A pick-up partnership in north america who will be playing a duplicate with minimal prior discussion can agree to say Lebensohl as a defence to interferences over their notrump auctions and little else usually needs to be say about this. There is a basic common denominator that will be assumed and both players can easily work from there. So I'm guessing a similar treatment must exist for dealing with multi in any area where the method is commonly used and I truly fail to see why this is eemed too complicated for juniors. Is Lebensohl something you'll want to shield us from as well? =)

[helene_t]

shaztaz, on May 13 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

I'm actually curious what the usual way to deal with multi is. Is there a common defensc or some generally known method that a, say reasonably experienced European player, can expect a pick-up partner of similar skill to know and play with little to no discussion?

I believe in Poland it is common to play x = t/o of spades. If you have a t/o of hearts you wait, expecting to double 2♥.

Otherwise standard is something like
x=13-15 or any strong hand that can't make a jump overcall.
(2♦)-x or pass-(2M*)-x is t/o on M.
After our 3m overcall, 3M shows a stop in that suit, no necessarily length.
Leaping Michaels does not apply unless discussed.

This isn't 100% misunderstanding-proof but having played in multi-land for seven years I don't recall ever having had problems with it.

I know some partnerships have sophisticated agreements that allow them to distinguish between length and a stopper in a suit which opps may or may not have, and increase the opportunities for penalizing opps. It wouldn't be among the first hundred things I would discuss with a new partner.

[Old York]

In my experience as a bbo td, the biggest reason for resistance to Multi (and wj, prec etc) is the total failure to alert correctly
Quite frankly, I got sick of repeated director calls from tables where Multi was un-alerted or alerted as "multi"
Many regular players were much happier after I banned Multi, and I received very few complaints

However..... I would much prefer to be able to allow any licensed systems (and psyches)

Tony (Duke of York)
p.s. are juniors allowed to psyche?
p.p.s Multi is allowed in bbo BIL tournies which seems to blast a big hole in the arguments against it's use by bbo-juniors

[hanp]

Juniors don't psyche, period.

[Walddk]

Old York, on May 13 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

p.p.s Multi is allowed in bbo BIL tournies which seems to blast a big hole in the arguments against it's use by bbo-juniors

There is a significant difference, Tony. BIL is run by a person from New Zealand (Maureen Hall), JuniorsBBO by people from USA. New Zealanders dislike restrictions in this context.

Roland

[lynndeas]

how can one learn new things if not allowed to play or defend them. Multi is popular in europe but not in the US while weak 2 bids are popular in the us and not in europe. I think we should be encouraged to try new things as this is how we all get better. the juniors are incredibly good and are like little sponges so they should be alllowed to play most conventions (including Multi) in their tournaments. i am sure that there are places to play where no conventions ae allowed for anyone who doesnt want to play against unusual things. why not go by the wbf rules which is to allow anything except brown sticker conventions.

lynn deas

[helene_t]

hanp, on May 13 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

Juniors don't psyche, period.

You are too young to make sarcastic posts, Han.

[brianshark]

I have only played Juniors BBO events a few times, mostly due to scheduling conflicts. But I'm disappointed to hear multi is not allowed.

It is amusing to hear that the main justification is that poor delicate juniors aren't prepared for it while the BIL has had great success teaching and encouraging inexperienced beginners while allowing multi. Not to mention that junior does not necessarily mean inexperienced ill-prepared beginner. Many, I'm sure, are quite serious about their game, play in serious partnerships with proper systems which may include some form of multi as a core component.

This policy seems misguided. But if the organisers want to aim their organisation towards the specific American-beginner-junior demographic, then that's their choice. I guess you can't cater for everyone, and choices have to be made.

[shaztaz]

Actually, most of the JuniorsBBO events are scheduled in the middle of the work/school day in North America so it's pretty hard for those of us who have classes and such during the day to play bridge in a tourney at 2 in the afternoon. So in that way they're not specifically targeted to accommodate North American juniors. This means that very few North American juniors actually *play* in the events anyhow, and as a result the restriction on Multi seems even less understandable.

(I'm not complaining about the scheduling, I know how hard it is! =) Just, since the schedule favours the European countries, that's the majority of the players who attend the events, that's all...)

[manudude03]

I don't have much to add to this. I will however ask what would happen what would happen if an ACBL junior went into a Midchart+ event and had to defend against multi? Yes they could be given a defence, but they would have to be pretty clear about what would qualify for each call at each turn.

I often find that opps who do not defend against multi often have a tendency to pass and see what happens, and the auction will be at 3H when they're trying to sign off. Now they have issues about if 3S shows full values or just a (pre)balance. Would it not be better if multi was allowed on BBOjuniors (most players on BBO who play multi seem to be juniors anyway)? And even if it leads to a few bad boards, at least they've learnt something (without it affecting them in a serious competiton).

[vdoubleu]

We have decided to allow Multi at our Tuesday Tourneys, but not BSC,s, HUM's, & other odd conventions (read: forcing pass as an opening bid)

As far as scheduling, we try to accomodate a world-wide membership, where, in some parts of the world it is some ungodly hr of the night.

Yes, we do get a lot of American players as well as players from all parts of the world.

Our players range in ages from 8-26 and of disparate levels of play.

Judging by the saber-rattling on these boards for the past couple days, we are not neanderthals, have a total grip of what is going on in bridge and are trying to run a program tailored to more than 2,000 members, which, as you may not know, we do totally pro bono.

Nor do the WC's & Hall-of -Famers that play every Wednesday at our Teaching Table get compensated!

Valerie Westheimer

[hanp]

Way to go Valerie, keep it up!

[hrothgar]

vdoubleu, on May 14 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

We have decided to allow Multi at our Tuesday Tourneys, but not BSC,s, HUM's, & other odd conventions (read: forcing pass as an opening bid)

Minor quibble: Strong Pass systems are HUMs :-)

I suspect that your life would be easier if you avoided nebulous expressions like "other odd conventions" and standardized your vocabulary.

I'd go so far as to recommend that BBO Juniors uses same Convention Charts / Conditions of Contest that the WBF uses for its Junir events.

The CoC are well documented. You'll be able to point at a (fairly) unambiguous set of external regulations. You also have a pretty reasonable justification why you have adopted this particular set of regulations.

(Which is not to say that I don't think that legalizing multi is a step in the right direction)

[Old York]

The ACBL website has a database of standard, approved defenses to various conventions. Oddly, they include 2 defense schemes to multi, which seems to add to the confusion

http://web2.acbl.org...database/3b.htm

Hope this helps a bit

Tony

[Tola18]

hrothgar, on May 14 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

(Which is not to say that I don't think that legalizing multi is a step in the right direction)

Yeah. So lets work the iron when it is still hot:

Lets legalize the Wilkosz 2D! (a twosuiter 6-11p, popular among WJ-players. Nothing you must really have but loved by its afficionados).

We want Wilkosz, we want Wilkosz, we want Wilkosz!


The merryments aside.

Im joking only in half.

I think if the multi was such a problem, there may be other unclearances. It may perhaps be good to discuss also other conventions and aspects of the play.
Suggestions and questions welcomed.

[hrothgar]

Tola18, on May 14 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

hrothgar, on May 14 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

(Which is not to say that I don't think that legalizing multi is a step in the right direction)

Yeah. So lets work the iron when it is still hot:

Lets legalize the Wilkosz 2D! (a twosuiter 6-11p, popular among WJ-players. Nothing you must really have but loved by its afficionados).

We want Wilkosz, we want Wilkosz, we want Wilkosz!


The merryments aside.

Im joking only in half.

I think if the multi was such a problem, there may be other unclearances. It may perhaps be good to discuss also other conventions and aspects of the play.
Suggestions and questions welcomed.

I think that you are mixing apples and oranges.

I would argue the following:

1. BBO Juniors should use the same convention regulations as the WBF's Juniors events.

2. As I recall, the WBF doesn't allow Brown Sticker Conventions in pairs events.

3. Wilkosz 2♦ is a BSC.

Therefore, BBO Juniors should not permit Wilkosz.

Moreover, I would argue that IF you want Wilkosz to be legal in BBO Juniors events, the correct course of action is to convince the WBF to change THEIR system regulations. If / when this happy, the change should automatically cascade into the BBO Juniors regulations.

I won't be holding my breath

[tbr]

Wow Valerie and Paula, that is so awesome.

[Adriaantje]

I also think Multi should be allowed. In international regulations Multi is considered permitted. I think juniors are perfectly capable of handling this convention. I myself live in the Netherlands and with my age of 15 I think I can call myself a junior. At the club I play i think 98% of the players uses Multi (mostly combined with Muiderberg or semiforcing 2♥/2♠). I myself also use it. I also participated in the Dutch Champinships for Team Match and for Pairs. Multi was allowed there (BSC's and HUM's weren't) and I think that is the right way, it also should be treated like that at the JuniorBBO tournaments.