[Old York]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 20 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Old York, on Apr 20 2009, 07:56 AM, said:

If responder has a Spade stop, he should not be bidding 2♠ here, so what possible reason could there be?
<snip>

2S does not deny a spade stopper, it just denies 4 spades.

It is the only forcing bid responder has, so if we wants
to set a certain suit as truumps, because he wants to
go looking for slam, 2S is the bid, he has to choose.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Exactly

And if partner is looking for a minor suit slam, clubs may be better than diamonds
He will never bid 6♣ if he thinks you hold ♣xx

The only logical reason for partner to bid 2♠ is as a game force with minor suit slam ambitions, or as a game force with 3 card Heart support (and no Spade stopper), bidding 3 Clubs leaves the door open for both

Tony

[MickyB]

rogerclee, on Apr 20 2009, 05:52 AM, said:

I dislike a style that doesn't bid 1NT with opener's hand, but if you don't, you should make 1♠ the artificial force instead of 2♠, for reasons that should be all too obvious now.

Interesting...surely it's this style, where opener can still have four spades in a 4423 pattern, that benefits more from responder being able to rebid a natural 1♠?

[helene_t]

Yes, but it's also this style that is more harmed by responder having to skip a level of bidding space in order to inquire about opener's hand when so little is known about it.

Even if 1♠ is fsf, opener will rebid 2♠ with four spades. So some Dutch players (well, at least it is the way it works in Beidemeijer Rood, not sure if anyone play that system) play 1♠ as either natural or a generic force.

This seems to create some problems when opener has 4414 or 4405 and 15+ points. The auction starts
1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
3♠-4♣/♦*

*is this a cue for spades or is it a hand too strong for 3♣/♦ last round?

Even worse, suppose opener has a 4414 or 4405 18-count. Should he bid 4♠?

I am sure Ken Rexford can come up with a workaround but the easiest solution is probably for responder with 5♦/4♠ to bid 1♠ immediately with less than GF hands, and 2♠ over 1♥ with GF hands. Then 1♠ (fsf) denies four spades, and opener rebids 1NT with a balanced hand whether he has four spades or not.

[Old York]

1♣-1♦-1NT works well if you play that the 1♦ response denies a biddable 4 card major (Staymanic)

Tony

[MickyB]

helene_t, on Apr 21 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

Even if 1♠ is fsf, opener will rebid 2♠ with four spades. So some Dutch players (well, at least it is the way it works in Beidemeijer Rood, not sure if anyone play that system) play 1♠ as either natural or a generic force.

This seems to create some problems when opener has 4414 or 4405 and 15+ points. The auction starts
1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
3♠-4♣/♦*

*is this a cue for spades or is it a hand too strong for 3♣/♦ last round?

Even worse, suppose opener has a 4414 or 4405 18-count. Should he bid 4♠?

Washington Standard uses a similar 1♠ rebid. Now opener's 2♥ rebid is ART, a good raise of spades - they open 1♥ with 5♥6♣ so this isn't needed as NAT. Even if you do have a penchant for opening your longest suit, I suspect the 2♥ rebid could be used as a good raise - it must be playable to allocate a higher call to show 5♥6♣.