[mikeh]

The double here has traditionally been used as penalty, and I think that that is still the better method.

This is a hand on which takeout would be better, provided that we have a place to play... which is not assured. But one hand proves little, if anything.

Q10xx xx AJxx Kxx... now we'd like to make them pay, and we'd be lamenting that we had no penalty double available.


As it is, I pass.. on a good day, partner can reopen, but I'm not going to be holding my breath.

No method caters to all hand types.

[jdonn]

It is definitely one of those situations where whatever you choose, you largely have to give up showing something else. I play penalty because it's standard and it's relatively common and I have never been bothered to change. But in the cold light of day I think card showing and takeout oriented is a better treatment, and that by passing our penalty doubles we will still get a fair amount of the penalties when partner reopens.

[Mbodell]

Yeah, X can be penalty, cooperative, or takeout/minors. 2nt can be minors or natural. I think natural 2nt and cooperative X are often similar sorts of hands. I think cooperative and takeout/minors are both more common than penalty. Therefore I like X as cooperative and 2nt as minors.

[whereagles]

bid_em_up, on Apr 22 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

If partner had short spades, he would/should have reopened with double initially.

Pard bid 2♥. That doesn't deny short spades. If I have a penalty double, he's actually bound to have short spades, no?

Ok, maybe he's not strong enough to double 2nd round, but you can't have it all.

[whereagles]

mikeh, on Apr 22 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

The double here has traditionally been used as penalty, and I think that that is still the better method.

Robson/Segal have it defined as take out.

There's a rule about delayed doubles somewhere in chapter 5. Actually, the interpretation of the rule in this case is a bit muddy, but you can check from their examples they do play it as take out.

Sorry to keep mentioning this 15 year-old book, but it's by far the best thing I've read on the subject of competitive bidding

[bid_em_up]

whereagles, on Apr 23 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

Pard bid 2♥. That doesn't deny short spades. If I have a penalty double, he's actually bound to have short spades, no?

No.

xxx AKJxx KQx xx

would not reopen with a double (either intially or the 2nd time around), would it?

Neither would xx AQxxx AKxx xx (or similar).