[PassedOut]

luke warm, on Apr 20 2009, 03:38 PM, said:

what would your solution be?

Tax cuts.

[jdonn]

luke warm, on Apr 20 2009, 03:38 PM, said:

PassedOut, on Apr 20 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Apr 19 2009, 09:26 PM, said:

One reason for the aforementioned Declaration of Paris is that in practice, one country's "privateer" was another country's "pirate", letter of marque or no letter of marque. Agreeing not to issue such letters is one way to avoid this controversy.

Whether the US issuing such letters is a good or bad idea I'm not prepared to debate. I will say that I don't think Ron Paul is a stupid man.

I don't think Ron Paul is stupid either, but he does promote a single ideology as the solution to all problems. In this case, Ron Paul's "solution" to the piracy problem is utterly, hopelessly, stupid.

what would your solution be? feel free to form one in consultation with richard

While I don't know exactly what I would do, it would happen IN Somalia, not in the waters extending a thousand miles from it in every direction. The prior analogy still applies. You can't kill an ant infestation by stomping on every ant you see.

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Apr 20 2009, 11:38 PM, said:

PassedOut, on Apr 20 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Apr 19 2009, 09:26 PM, said:

One reason for the aforementioned Declaration of Paris is that in practice, one country's "privateer" was another country's "pirate", letter of marque or no letter of marque. Agreeing not to issue such letters is one way to avoid this controversy.

Whether the US issuing such letters is a good or bad idea I'm not prepared to debate. I will say that I don't think Ron Paul is a stupid man.

I don't think Ron Paul is stupid either, but he does promote a single ideology as the solution to all problems. In this case, Ron Paul's "solution" to the piracy problem is utterly, hopelessly, stupid.

what would your solution be? feel free to form one in consultation with richard

Whats the old saying...

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

I don't claim to have a good answer to the problem. That doesn't mean that I can't recognize an incredibly bad idea when I see one.

[PassedOut]

The eventual solution to this and other problems in the world will be a system of international law with real and strong enforcement capabilities.

Governments will have to meet certain minimum standards regarding human rights and international conduct. Penalties up to and including replacement of those governments (to stop genocide, for example) will be applied. Situations like those in Somalia will not be permitted to continue.

Because "the world has gotten smaller," some consolidation has already started and is certain to continue, albeit slowly. Among other things, we need effective international ways to control corporations and to ensure that our planet is protected.

Establishing the worldwide legal system will be gradual, I realize, and I won't live to see it. Until then, problems like piracy, genocide, and poisoning the air and water won't be solved completely.

And certainly not by stupid ideas like that offered by Ron Paul on piracy.

[helene_t]

PassedOut, on Apr 20 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

The eventual solution to this and other problems in the world will be a system of international law with real and strong enforcement capabilities.

Governments will have to meet certain minimum standards regarding human rights and international conduct. Penalties up to and including replacement of those governments (to stop genocide, for example) will be applied. Situations like those in Somalia will not be permitted to continue.

The US tried to create order in Somalia and gave up. Ethiopia tried and gave up. Afghanistan hasn't been such a big success either. Iraq is showing a tiny bit of progress, finally, but at annual costs some 1000 times the costs inflicted by Somali pirates, I think (please correct me if I exaggerate). Any chance that an international force would be more (cost-) effective?

As a healthcare researcher I favor symptom treatment. Block their sea ports, bomb their costal towns, discourage them by blowing up one or two of their vessels every week, direct the ships further to the East and South of Africa, or just live with the piracy and pay the occasional ransom.

Do whatever is more politically opportune. Just don't try to address the root of the problem, that's so much easier said than done.

This all said: I am all for development aid to third world countries. I am a permanent sponsor of several development aid organizations and have spent many holidays doing voluntary work for them. If anything can be done to provide better conditions and prospects for somalians, the money will be better spent there than on hi-tech anti-pirate weapons. I just don't believe development aid has any significant impact on this particular problem. Doesn't matter, improving the life of third world people is important for its own sake and much more so than this pirate issue.

[PassedOut]

helene_t, on Apr 21 2009, 06:05 AM, said:

PassedOut, on Apr 20 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

The eventual solution to this and other problems in the world will be a system of international law with real and strong enforcement capabilities.

Governments will have to meet certain minimum standards regarding human rights and international conduct. Penalties up to and including replacement of those governments (to stop genocide, for example) will be applied. Situations like those in Somalia will not be permitted to continue.

The US tried to create order in Somalia and gave up. Ethiopia tried and gave up. Afghanistan hasn't been such a big success either. Iraq is showing a tiny bit of progress, finally, but at annual costs some 1000 times the costs inflicted by Somali pirates, I think (please correct me if I exaggerate). Any chance that an international force would be more (cost-) effective?

As a healthcare researcher I favor symptom treatment. Block their sea ports, bomb their costal towns, discourage them by blowing up one or two of their vessels every week, direct the ships further to the East and South of Africa, or just live with the piracy and pay the occasional ransom.

Do whatever is more politically opportune. Just don't try to address the root of the problem, that's so much easier said than done.

This all said: I am all for development aid to third world countries. I am a permanent sponsor of several development aid organizations and have spent many holidays doing voluntary work for them. If anything can be done to provide better conditions and prospects for somalians, the money will be better spent there than on hi-tech anti-pirate weapons. I just don't believe development aid has any significant impact on this particular problem. Doesn't matter, improving the life of third world people is important for its own sake and much more so than this pirate issue.

Yes, my point is that there simply is no easy short-term fix to problems like this one, and to pretend otherwise is foolish.

Eventually such problems will be solved (not completely, but for all practical purposes) along the lines I mentioned. But we're a long way from that day for sure.

[blackshoe]

helene_t, on Apr 21 2009, 06:05 AM, said:

just live with the piracy and pay the occasional ransom.

The then-fledgling USofA tried that. I referred to it earlier. "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it" (Georges Santyana).

"Just live with" will not work. Not long-term.

[hrothgar]

blackshoe, on Apr 21 2009, 06:09 PM, said:

helene_t, on Apr 21 2009, 06:05 AM, said:

just live with the piracy and pay the occasional ransom.

The then-fledgling USofA tried that. I referred to it earlier. "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it" (Georges Santyana).

"Just live with" will not work. Not long-term.

I'd argue that "Just live with it" has a long, storied, and largely happy history.

Pirates have been around for millenia. I'm sure that anyone with any knowledge of history recalls the stories where Julius Caesar was ransomed by pirates. (The rest of you can get by with recent Disney movies).

Pirates/Corsairs/what have you infested the Medditerrean from (at least) the time of the Egyptian through to the French conquest of North Africa. Yes, there were periodic attempts to sqush individual groups of pirates. (Caesar later crucified the pirates who held him captive). There were even efforts to raid and destroy pirate's home ports. None of this had any lasting effect because its not cost effective. It might make people feel good. It's GREAT political theater (which is why I brought up young Gaius Julius...). It really seems to get people's dick's hard. However, it doesn't have any lasting impact.

What finally ended the threat of piracy in the Med was the stablity imposed by European colonialism. The same basic pattern prevailed elsewhere in the world (including the Carribean)

[onoway]

This came from a blog associated with one of Canada's political parties. It's a bit long but brings up some issues not so far mentioned in the forum.
http://www.greenparty.ca/en/blogs/14081/20...proud-be-pirate

(the title may come back to haunt them in the next election )

[jdonn]

I don't agree with just living with the problem. Maybe it is just a matter of the hardness of my body parts, but I see a problem and thus I like the idea of fixing it. As with most problems, I suspect the up front cost is great but the long term benefit is greater. Of course I can't prove that.

[luke warm]

jdonn, on Apr 20 2009, 04:00 PM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 20 2009, 03:38 PM, said:

PassedOut, on Apr 20 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Apr 19 2009, 09:26 PM, said:

One reason for the aforementioned Declaration of Paris is that in practice, one country's "privateer" was another country's "pirate", letter of marque or no letter of marque. Agreeing not to issue such letters is one way to avoid this controversy.

Whether the US issuing such letters is a good or bad idea I'm not prepared to debate. I will say that I don't think Ron Paul is a stupid man.

I don't think Ron Paul is stupid either, but he does promote a single ideology as the solution to all problems. In this case, Ron Paul's "solution" to the piracy problem is utterly, hopelessly, stupid.

what would your solution be? feel free to form one in consultation with richard

While I don't know exactly what I would do, it would happen IN Somalia, not in the waters extending a thousand miles from it in every direction. The prior analogy still applies. You can't kill an ant infestation by stomping on every ant you see.

that's pretty much my view also, although i don't see anything wrong with stepping on the occasional ant when he shows himself

[TimG]

In the little reading that I have done, it does not sound to me like the pirates have a political agenda, they're quite simply out for the money. Is that right?

I'm sure I would be surprised by the number of ships that pass through the Gulf of Aden, but how many of these are American ships?

How coordinated have the military escorts been? Have ships that were under escort been pirated? From a purely US perspective, couldn't the piracy of US ships be virtually eliminated through the use of Navy escorts through the area?

[bid_em_up]

Of course, the obvious solution would be for the insurer's and/or governments to just pay $x million per month up front to the local Pirates Benevolence Fund, in exchange for no more hijackings.

(Any semblance between this and a real solution is purely a figment of your imagination.)

[Aberlour10]

What about the other sort of "pirates", who illegal over-fished totally Somalia coasts through 2 decades after the central goverment was collapsed in 1991 and there were nobody who was able to protect Somalias rights. More than $300m-worth of tuna, shrimp, and lobster are being stolen every year by illegal trawlers (western vessels too). For many of these todays pirates was fishing the only source of income. This is not excuse for their excesses but we should think and talk about it too.

Robert

[Winstonm]

Jeff Huber in full sarcasm mode:

http://original.antiwar.com/huber/2009/04/...vy-dogs-of-war/

[y66]

From the Pirate Chronicles

Quote

GAROOWE, Somalia — Abshir Boyah, a towering, notorious Somali pirate boss who admits to hijacking more than 25 ships and to being a member of a secretive pirate council called “The Corporation,” says he’s ready to cut a deal.

Facing intensifying naval pressure on the seas and now a rising backlash on land, Mr. Boyah has been shuttling between elders and religious sheiks fed up with pirates and their vices, promising to quit the buccaneering business if certain demands are met.

“Man, these Islamic guys want to cut my hands off,” he grumbled over a plate of camel meat and spaghetti. The sheiks seemed to have rattled him more than the armada of foreign warships patrolling offshore. “Maybe it’s time for a change.”

Maybe we could get some of those Islamic guys to rewrite regulatory policy for the Treasury Dept.

[Winstonm]

y66, on May 9 2009, 07:15 AM, said:

From the Pirate Chronicles

Quote

GAROOWE, Somalia — Abshir Boyah, a towering, notorious Somali pirate boss who admits to hijacking more than 25 ships and to being a member of a secretive pirate council called “The Corporation,” says he’s ready to cut a deal.

Facing intensifying naval pressure on the seas and now a rising backlash on land, Mr. Boyah has been shuttling between elders and religious sheiks fed up with pirates and their vices, promising to quit the buccaneering business if certain demands are met.

“Man, these Islamic guys want to cut my hands off,” he grumbled over a plate of camel meat and spaghetti. The sheiks seemed to have rattled him more than the armada of foreign warships patrolling offshore. “Maybe it’s time for a change.”

Maybe we could get some of those Islamic guys to rewrite regulatory policy for the Treasury Dept.

The C.I.A. needs to hire better fiction writers.

[Lobowolf]

A dash of nano-thermite to make the story plausible.

[Winstonm]

Lobowolf, on May 9 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

A dash of nano-thermite to make the story plausible.

Or a neocoservative byline to make it clear that it's make-believe.

[onoway]

Something I ran across on an extension of a story about the Somali pirates:

"Somali Pirates claim that they are only responding to abuse by the International Community, which has stolen their fish and their livelihood. They claim that foreigners dumped toxic waste there.
Some don't believe it.
Well, here's something you CAN believe:
The UN Special Representative, using money from a Norwegian Oil firm, is engineering a deal where Somalia gives up its claim to a large chunk of its territorial waters to Kenya, including the rights to the oil under the sea there.

The so-called TFG Somali Government parliament has not approved any such deal.

To Somalis, this looks like one more expropriation of their resources by former colonials, cutting deals with individual politicians who do NOT represent the will of the people. That is going on RIGHT NOW.

........

The Brussels conference raised $250 Million, then promptly committed to spend it to increase the militarization in the region. Just what they need: more guns and more bullets.

The USA is spending about $3.5 Million per day to patrol Somali waters with a naval force designed to fight the navy of another superpower.
That money would have a much bigger impact on reducing Piracy if we gave it to the Puntland government instead."

The statement about the U.N. Special Representative screams for an investigation.

It's interesting, if true, that the U.S. is so flush with money right now it can spend this sort of money PER DAY in what is basically a negative direction. It may temporarilly stop the piracy, but it does nothing to prevent its recurrance, nor to address the root of the problem. It's like buying tons of coughdrops for a person suffering from T.B. but doing nothing whatsoever about the T.B. (or perhaps more like patrolling outside the house with a platoon and shooting anyone who coughs )
.