[Chamaco]

Hi all !
This thread is similar to the previous thread on 1D:2C sequences in Precision, posted in the last few days !

It also includes some detail on the ambiguous response 1D:1H = ambiguous= either natural OR artificial game force (basic idea borrowed from Viking Club, while skipping the full relay structure).
The reason why details are given is that they can help defining which hands are better suitable into the 1D:2D response.

Thanks a lot to all who will reply !!!


PS: as usual, I'd strive to avoid relay sequences

there fore the same set of assumptions holds:

1) you are playing Precision with 10-12 1NT opening and 2C = 6+ clubs or 5+C+4M.
Therefore 1D can be
- 13-15 hcp (semi)balanced
- 54-55-45 in the minors, <16 hcp
- 5D + 4M, <16 hcp
- single suiter in diamonds, <16 hcp
- 4441 (cannot be short in diamonds), <16 hcp.

2) The set of responses to 1D opening is

- 1H = AMBIGUOUS, EITHER natural oR game forcing; opener bids naturally, raising Hearts with any 4 card support or with 3 card support and a singleton (to avoid getting in trouble when responder is weak and opener is 54 in minors; in that case the weak responder has a difficult choice when opener rebids 2C)
After 1D:1H:2H,
a )2S is relay denying hearts; opener bids: -2NT = 4432 with 4 H; 3C= 3 card raise with longer clubs; 3D = 3 card raise with longer diams; 3H = 5+d and 4 H; 3S = 4441; 3NT = 4333
b ) 3C is a relay promising hearts; opener bids: 3D = 3 card raise with a singleton; 3H = 5+ D and 4H; 3S = 4 card raise + singleton; 3NT = 4432/4333
c) 2NT is natural invitational with 4 H
d) 3D/3H should be game tries, I have not defined them yet, SUGGESTIONS WELCOME !!
e) 3NT offers choice of games with 4 card H , pard pass or correct

After 1D:1H, 1S cannot be balanced, and guarantees 5diamonds + spades e.g. a balanced opener will rebid NT even holding spades (or 4441 H singleton- or should this better bid 1S so that 1S is either 5+D and spades or 4441 ?).

On the sequences 1D:1H:1S or 1D:1H:1NT, the XYZ convention is on:
-2C= any invitational hand (hearts are real then) or eak with diamonds; opener is forced to bid 2D then responder passes if weak with diams, or invites naturally;
-2D = any normal opening hand (or balanced slammish)
-Minimum rebids or raise of opener are signoffs
- 3C is signoff in clubs (only way to play in C, since 2C is artificial)
- all jumps or jump raises are picture jumps for slammish hands, with concentrated values
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Ok, the description of the ambiguous 1H (basic idea taken from the Viking Club, avoiding the full relay of course) was long, but it may be needed to discriminate the hands that can be responded 2D (some of them may fall within the 1H response).
Other responses to 1D are fairly standard:

1S= natural, 1 round force, 4+ spades
1NT= 8-10 bal, nat
2C= invitational +, 5+ cards (may have a side major only if GF)
2D = ???
2H/S= strong Jumpshift
2NT = 11-12, natural invitational
3C= invitational one suited in clubs,
3D = preemptive
3H/S= splinter
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Finally we come to the subject of this post:
What is your suggestion for the type of hands to be included in 1D:2D ?
Which of the following ?
1) invitational with 5 diamonds, no major
2) GF hand 5+ diams, 4M
3) slammish hands, 5+ diams, no major
4) slammish hands, 5+ diams, 4M

Then the questions become:
what does opener bid after 1D:2D ?
The problems are similar to the sequence 1D:2C:
1) Opener is not concerned of showing a reverse, but still he must be aware that the auction is not a game force, so some of his bids may be passed by a minimum responder.
2) Should opener show a side major independently from shape and independently from being max or min ?
In other words, after 1D:2D:2♥/♠,
- 2a ) should responder think that the auction is game force even if he holds a minimum invitational hand ?
- 2b ) should responder assume that opener is 5D+4M or can opener still e balanced with the major ?

3) this is closely related to point 2). After 1D:2D Should OPENER with a max balanced hand jump to 3NT (potentially preempting partner looking for a slam), and with a min balanced bid 2NT ? Do these bids deny interest in the majors ?

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Example hands (basically the same as in the previous post)
North is always dealer

After 1D:2D

Hand 1

North ♠ KQ72 ♥ AKJ9 ♦ 9 3 ♣ 9 7 3

South ♠ 9 4 ♥ Q 8 6 ♦ A Q 8 5 4 ♣ A K 10

1D:2D

should responder bid 2D or use 1H as artificial GF ?
If 2D is correct, should North bid 2NT or 2M (which major in that case ? I suppose hearts)

---------------------
Hand 2

North ♠ AK72 ♥ AKJ9 ♦ 9 3 ♣ 9 7 3

South ♠ 9 4 ♥ T 8 6 ♦ A K 8 5 4 ♣ A K 10

1D:2D:?

Now do you bid the major or NT ? If you bid NT, how many ? If you bid 3NT, pard can still have a hand that could push towards slam if u leave him room to investigate at the 3 level, but that will be reluctanto to do so if u jump to 3NT. Of course if he has a battleship or a freak hand, he will go on even after 3NT, but North's hand is so good here that closing to 3NT may miss a slam even if South has a decently good opening hand.

If you bid 2NT instead, pard will pass with a minimum invitational hand.
---------------------
Hand 3

North ♠ 5432 ♥ AQJ9 ♦ J7 ♣ KQJ

South ♠ Qx ♥ 865 ♦ AKQ854 ♣ xxx

1D:2D:?
Should North bid 2NT (showing a minimum) even with an empty spade suit ?
Or bid hearts ? How does that fit with the answers you gave to the previous questions ?

[kfgauss]

I'm not certain what hands you'd bid your 1H relay on when you don't have hearts (especially since you're not doing the full relays -- it seems like you need to work out how to deny hearts in auctions that don't go 1D-1H;2H too). I guess the balanced GF hands with no 4 card major are a problem (you've decided that 2C and 2D should both have 5 cards), but there are other ways of dealing with these, for example by doing away with 2M as strong jump shifts (have inv hands bid 2H, GF hands bid 2N, and you can use 2S as a diamond raise if you want... maybe a limit raise to make 1D-2D always GF), though of course this isn't without cost. It also isn't terrible just to stick these into 2C and 2D.

Quote

Finally we come to the subject of this post:
What is your suggestion for the type of hands to be included in 1D:2D ?
Which of the following ?
1) invitational with 5 diamonds, no major
2) GF hand 5+ diams, 4M
3) slammish hands, 5+ diams, no major
4) slammish hands, 5+ diams, 4M

1 and 3 (not 2 or 4 -- 2D should deny a 4 card major). (The reason this is different from 1D-2C is largely due to the fact that your hand is tightly constrained when you don't have a diamond fit [and somewhat due to having slightly less room]). With 2 or 4, just bid 1M and then make a forcing raise next round (maybe through 4sf or xyz).

Quote

Then the questions become:
what does opener bid after 1D:2D ?
The problems are similar to the sequence 1D:2C:
1) Opener is not concerned of showing a reverse, but still he must be aware that the auction is not a game force, so some of his bids may be passed by a minimum responder.
2) Should opener show a side major independently from shape and independently from being max or min ?
In other words, after 1D:2D:2♥/♠,
- 2a ) should responder think that the auction is game force even if he holds a minimum invitational hand ?
- 2b ) should responder assume that opener is 5D+4M or can opener still e balanced with the major ?

3) this is closely related to point 2). After 1D:2D Should OPENER with a max balanced hand jump to 3NT (potentially preempting partner looking for a slam), and with a min balanced bid 2NT ? Do these bids deny interest in the majors ?

There are many methods here. (1) and (2) aren't really problems because resp doesn't have a 4 card major.

1. Standard:
2N and 3D are the only rebids that allow you to stop below 3N/4D. 2M is stopper showing.

Here you'd like to guarantee that you show real diamonds with 2M, but you can't.

2. Weak notrump standard:
2N is GF (you'll need to make sure 2D is 11+ and that you're happy forcing to game with bal 13 opposite 11), 3D is the only rebid allowing you to stop below 3N/4D (you'll have 4+ diamonds if not balanced). New suit is stopper showing (ie often only 3), guarantees 4+D.

3. A slightly artificial option if you dislike the problems in both of the above:

1D-2D;?
2H = any non GF or not real diamonds
New suit = 4, 4+D GF
2N = 4 hearts, 4+D GF
3D = 6+ diamonds, GF

1D-2D;2H-?
2S = GF (ie to 3N or 4D), asks
2N = NF, opener passes with a min without real diamonds (corrects to 3D with a min with real diamonds)
3D = NF, opener passes with a min
3 new suit = splinter, GF

1D-2D;2H-2S;?
2N = all suits (somewhat) stopped (often best when you stop both majors)
3D = 5+ diamonds (not mandatory)
3 new suit = stopper (often 3 cards)

Quote

Hand 1

North ♠ KQ72 ♥ AKJ9 ♦ 9 3 ♣ 9 7 3

South ♠ 9 4 ♥ Q 8 6 ♦ A Q 8 5 4 ♣  A K 10

1D:2D

should responder bid 2D or use 1H as artificial GF ?
If 2D is correct, should North bid 2NT or 2M (which major in that case ? I suppose hearts)

1. 1D-2D;2N-3C;3N (3C just to double check on spade stopper)
2. 1D-2D;2N-3C;3N (same)
3. 1D-2D;2H*-2S*;2N-3C;3N (same idea)

Quote

Hand 2

North ♠  AK72 ♥ AKJ9 ♦  9 3 ♣ 9 7 3

South ♠ 9 4 ♥ T 8 6 ♦  A K 8 5 4  ♣  A K 10

1D:2D:?

Now do you bid the major or NT ? If you bid NT, how many ? If you bid 3NT, pard can still have a hand that could push towards slam if u leave him room to investigate at the 3 level, but that will be reluctanto to do so if u jump to 3NT. Of course if he has a battleship or a freak hand, he will go on even after 3NT, but North's hand is so good here that closing to 3NT may miss a slam even if South has a decently good opening hand.

If you bid 2NT instead, pard will pass with a minimum invitational hand.

1. 1D-2D;2H-3C;3N
2. 1D-2D;2N-3C;3N
3. 1D-2D;2H*-2S*;2N-3C;3N

Quote

Hand 3

North ♠ 5432 ♥ AQJ9 ♦ J7 ♣ KQJ

South ♠ Qx ♥ 865 ♦ AKQ854 ♣ xxx

1D:2D:?
Should North bid 2NT (showing a minimum) even with an empty spade suit ?
Or bid hearts ? How does that fit with the answers you gave to the previous questions ?

1. 1D-2D;2N-3D or 1D-2D;2N-3N depending on your judgement with south
2. 1D-2D;2N-3N
3. 1D-2D;2H*-3D or 1D-2D;2H*-2S*;2N-3N (xxxx is good enough to bid 2N with, as you've got room to double check weak stoppers), depending on south's judgement

Andy

[keylime]

Let me offer some help. 1♦-2♦ should NOT deny a major by the 2♦ bidder. To me, it's far more important to show values immediately, instead of jumping around a losing a potential level of room. This also helps opener's rebids immensely. You can now stop at 2NT knowing you tried to find a fit, if opener opened a shapely 10-11 point hand that couldn't start with the mini-NT.

This principle works as well for the 1♦-2♣ methodology as well.

[Chamaco]

I would like to add the following to my initial post:
if that does not complicate too much the structure of the responses, I would love to able to respond 2D with hands with GOOD diamonds and a side major that can find slam with the "right " honors from opener.

Say I hold

♠AQJx♥x♦AJT9x♣Axx

and opener opens Precision 1D (13-15 bal or unbalanced with diamonds).

I think this hand may investigate slam in diamonds but I do not think he will find it if I start with:
- 1 spade response
- or with an artificial 1♥ GF reponse: starting with 1H I can find the distribution of opener but not his honor concentration,

The main advantage of being able to rspond 2D with strong hand and a side major is to help opener to reevaluate his hand based on his diamond fillers. And as I said, this won't happen of i start by showing my major bypassing my long minor, nor if I opt for using a mini-relay sequence.

Ok, here is the WHY I would like to respond 2D holding a good 5 bagger in ♦ + a 4cM, but now the question is: how much would this complicate the set of responses after 1♦:2♦ ?

Thanks all !