[Chamaco]

Hi all !
Yet another precision question, thanks in advances to all the friends that will help me !

PS: probably most of the problems outlined can be solved by a relay sequence, but that would be too much for me right now; please assume I should try to solve the problems below in a "natural" fashion, or with at most one or 2 conventions (which is different from a relay system obviously..)

Assume you are playing Precision with 10-12 1NT opening and 2C = 6+ clubs or 5+C+4M.

Therefore 1D can be
- 13-15 hcp (semi)balanced
- 54-55-45 in the minors, <16 hcp
- 5D + 4M, <16 hcp
- single suiter in diamonds, <16 hcp
- 4441 (cannot be short in diamonds), <16 hcp.

Assume also that 1D- 2C is natural 5+ cards, invitational or better. If it is Game Forcing hand, it can still contain a side major. If it is invitational, it denies a side major.

I have generated some constrained deals to test on my own the sequences after 1D:2C, and I have stumbled into some problems, which I will illustrate with some hands:

1) Opener is not concerned of showing a reverse, but still he must be aware that the auction is not a game force, so some of his bids may be passed by a minimum responder.

2) Should opener show a side major independently from shape and independently from being max or min ?
In other words, after 1D:2C:2♥/♠,
- 2a ) should responder think that the auction is game force even if he holds a minimum invitational hand ?
- 2b ) should responder assume that opener is 5D+4M or can opener still e balanced with the major ?

3) this is closely related to point 2). After 1♦:2♣ Should OPENER with a max balanced hand jump to 3NT (potentially preempting partner looking for a slam), and with a min balanced bid 2NT ? Do these bids deny interest in the majors ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Example hands (North is always dealer)

Hand 1

North ♠ KQ72 ♥ AKJ9 ♦ 9 3 ♣ 9 7 3

South ♠9 4 ♥ Q 8 6 ♦ A K 10 ♣ A Q 8 5 4

1♦:2♣:?
Should North bid 2NT or 2M (which major in that case ? I suppose hearts)

---------------------
Hand 2

North ♠ AK72 ♥ AKJ9 ♦ 9 3 ♣ 9 7 3

South ♠9 4 ♥ T 8 6 ♦ A K 10 ♣ A K 8 5 4

1♦:2♣:?

Now do you bid the major or NT ? If you bid NT, how many ? If you bid 3NT, pard can still have a hand that could push towards slam if u leave him room to investigate at the 3 level, but that will be reluctanto to do so if u jump to 3NT. Of course if he has a battleship or a freak hand, he will go on even after 3NT, but North's hand is so good here that closing to 3NT may miss a slam even if South has a decently good opening hand.

If you bid 2NT instead, pard will pass with a minimum invitational hand.
---------------------
Hand 3

North ♠ 5432 ♥ KQJ9 ♦ KQJ ♣ J7

South ♠Qx ♥ 865 ♦ xxx ♣ AKQ854

1♦:2♣:?
Should North bid 2NT (showing a minimum) even with an empty spade suit ?
Or bid hearts ? How does that fit with the answers you gave to the previous questions ?

PS-if you object that North's hand is not worth a 13-15 balanced opening, just give him the Q of clubs instead of the J of clubs (or the Ace of diamonds in place of the K of diamonds). This does not change the nature of the problem.

--------------
Hand 4

Finally, a hand from the same sequence that does not look to me a "system" problem, but in which I'd rather have advice on how to reach slam once club fit was found.

North ♠ KQ ♥ T5 ♦ KQJ985 ♣ A96

South ♠ATxx ♥ AQ ♦ x ♣ KQJ843

1♦:2♣ I assume a reasonable development may be
2♦:2♠ (game force, not necessarily 4 bagger)
3♣

From now on, how do you get to 6 clubs or 6NT(played from S) ?

Thanks all ! )

[Chamaco]

Chamaco, on May 16 2004, 01:50 PM, said:

PS: probably most of the problems outlined can be solved by a relay sequence, but that would be too much for me right now; please assume I should try to solve the problems below in a "natural" fashion, or with at most one or 2 conventions (which is different from a relay system obviously..)

OOps, re-reading this part of the message, I suddenly realized I am asking some "natural" bidding solutions in a "Non-natural System Discussion" sub section...

Despite the fact that the questions actually refer to Precision (a "non-natural" system), maybe this thread is off-topic here, and should be moved to the 2/1 subsection?

Whetever the moderator decides, that would be fine with me ! Thanks !!

[kfgauss]

Quote

Assume you are playing Precision with 10-12 1NT opening and 2C = 6+ clubs or 5+C+4M.

Therefore 1D can be
- 13-15 hcp (semi)balanced
- 54-55-45 in the minors, <16 hcp
- 5D + 4M, <16 hcp
- single suiter in diamonds, <16 hcp
- 4441 (cannot be short in diamonds), <16 hcp.

Assume also that 1D- 2C is natural 5+ cards, invitational or better. If it is Game Forcing hand, it can still contain a side major. If it is invitational, it denies a side major.

I have generated some constrained deals to test on my own the sequences after 1D:2C, and I have stumbled into some problems, which I will illustrate with some hands:

1) Opener is not concerned of showing a reverse, but still he must be aware that the auction is not a game force, so some of his bids may be passed by a minimum responder.

2) Should opener show a side major independently from shape and independently from being max or min ?
In other words, after 1D:2C:2♥/♠,
- 2a ) should responder think that the auction is game force even if he holds a minimum invitational hand ?
- 2b ) should responder assume that opener is 5D+4M or can opener still e balanced with the major ?

3) this is closely related to point 2). After 1♦:2♣ Should OPENER with a max balanced hand jump to 3NT (potentially preempting partner looking for a slam), and with a min balanced bid 2NT ? Do these bids deny interest in the majors ?

There are several options. In association with all of these options, I recommend making 1D-3C invitational (the type of hand that you might previously have bid with 2C..3C). This limits the number of passable sequences in your 1D-2C auctions. I also recommend that you form a list (it'll be short) of all bidding sequences that stop below 3NT after 1D-2C.

Option 1:

A simple, natural method.

1D-2C;
2D = any hand with 5+ diamonds (except for some club raises or NT rebids)
2H/S = 4+-card suit, at most 4 diamonds (hence bal or 4441)
2N = 13 to 14-, NF
3C = club raise, GF (maybe always 4+ cards)

With 14+-15 bal, bid 2H/2S with a 4 card major or 2D/3C without one, and maybe 33(43) hands bid 3NT (or downgrade and bid 2NT). We've given up the ability to raise clubs in a NF way, but I don't see this as a big issue (at worst, you'll peter out in 4C sometimes when neither 3N nor 5C is suitable).

Our answers using this method: (1) Don't bid 2M unless GF (responder will have a major only if GF, as you mentioned). (2) 2M should *deny* 4M-5D! Use 2D first with all hands with 5 diamonds (except for some 2N rebids and club raises). (3) Answered above.

One minor fault with this is that we don't distinguish the strength of 4-4-4-1's, and instead call them GF. This is rather bad, especially because our singleton is in pard's suit. Other options are to bid 2N with non-GF 4-4-4-1's or to corrupt the 2D bid (which I don't like). I guess you could also add some artificiality to the 2M bids, using one for 4-4-4-1's and the other for GF bal hands or something (see below for something similar).

My preferences for passable sequences using this:
1D-2C;2N
1D-2C;2D-2N
1D-2C;2D-3D (E.g. 3-2-3-5 hands unsuitable for bidding 2N)
1D-2C;2D-2N;3D

Similar non-passable seq's:
Any time responder's next bid is 3C (because 1D-3C is inv)
1D-2C;2N-3D (If pard really wants to be able to play 3D when you're bal, he should've bid 1D-2D to begin with -- this is much more useful as forcing)

I'm sort of undecided on 1D-2C;2D-2N;3C/1D-2C;2D-2N;3C-3D.

Option 2:

You can adopt methods originally developed for use with a weak notrump in a standard system. Basically, this will force you to consider 1D-2C;2N as GF (13-15 is your stronger range, so this isn't ridiculous).

1D-2C;
2D = any hand with 5+ diamonds (except for some club raises and NT rebids)
2H = 4-4-4-1
2S = good club raise (ie GF)
2N = 13-15 bal (GF)
3C = bad club raise (ie passable)
(feel free to swap 2S/3C or perhaps have them encode info about which minor is longer)

Here, we get around (1) and (2) by making 2M artificial, so there's no question to answer. As mentioned above, we answer (3) by making 2N GF. Given that your opening range is 10-15, this isn't so bad. You'll want to limit your 2C bid to 10/11+ as opposed to something like 10+ then. (Hopefully you don't mind bidding 1D-1N;2N with 15 [you don't want to miss some of the 15-10 games]. I guess then you'll want to be passing 6-7 pt hands that bid 1N in natural systems. You'd perhaps do this anyways, as e.g. 1D-2N should be 11-12, not 10-12.)

Here you fix the 4-4-4-1 problem. These are the passable seq's:
1D-2C;3C
1D-2C;2D-2N
1D-2C;2D-3D
1D-2C;2D-2N;3D
1D-2C;2H-2N

And I'm undecided about 1D-2C;2H-3D. (Here, unlike 1D-2C;2N, you've guaranteed 4 diamonds, so playing the diamond part-score is much more likely to be something resp wants to do. Of course, the forcing 3D is useful too, and it's not terrible for 4-4-4-1 opposite (31)4-5 to play 2N.)

Hope this helps,
Andy

[Chamaco]

[quote name='kfgauss' date='May 16 2004, 09:03 PM'] [QUOTE]

There are several options. In association with all of these options, I recommend making 1D-3C invitational (the type of hand that you might previously have bid with 2C..3C). This limits the number of passable sequences in your 1D-2C auctions. [/quote]
Andy, thanks very much !
Your contribution is very detailed and constructive, I will try it in my next set of simulations.
For other approaches, you may want to check also the replies I received in the forum rec.games.bridge (if you don't , or other people don't, and they are interested, I may post those replies here)

----------------

Regarding 1D:3C invitational.
I thought of it, and for the ideal hands it sounds fine, having the added bonus of defining 2C as totally GF (sure enough not a small bonus).

But something inside me tells me it is wrong to respond 3C holding
[sp]K82[he]54[di]Q97[cl]KQT83

With this hand I would also hate bidding 2NT.
That is why I turned back to 2C = invitational+

[kfgauss]

Quote

Regarding 1D:3C invitational.
I thought of it, and for the ideal hands it sounds fine, having the added bonus of defining 2C as totally GF (sure enough not a small bonus).

But something inside me tells me it is wrong to respond 3C holding
♠K82♥54♦Q97♣KQT83

With this hand I would also hate bidding 2NT.
That is why I turned back to 2C = invitational+

What I'm suggesting is both using 1D-3C as invitational (always 6+) and having 1D-2C not be GF, so your example hand bids 2C, and then passes 2N (playing option 1 above) and bids 3D over 2D (these are the only NF sequences you'll encounter with this hand).

The benefit of using 1D-3C as invitational is that you don't have to make up a 2S bid on a 3-2-2-6 hand as in the auction 1D-2C;2D-2S (you suggest that you'd do this in the discussion of example hand 4 above). You can simply rebid 3C, game forcing.

Andy

[Chamaco]

Let me try to reformulate with my own words to see if I got that right! (sorry I am a slow thinker )

1D:3C is invitational only with single suited hand in clubs

1D:2C is invitational or better
if it is invitational, then it can rebid 2NT, because invitational minimum hands that would rebid 3C over opener's rebid would simply respond 3C at the 1st round rather than bid 2C and then rebid clubs.

That means that the auction 1D:2C;2X:3C is game force without need of faking a suit.

Is that correct ?

[kfgauss]

I'll respond to your example hands:

Quote

Example hands (North is always dealer)

Hand 1

North ♠ KQ72 ♥ AKJ9 ♦ 9 3  ♣ 9 7 3

South ♠9 4 ♥ Q 8 6 ♦ A K 10  ♣ A Q 8 5 4

1♦:2♣:?
Should North bid 2NT or 2M (which major in that case ? I suppose hearts)

Methods 1&2:
1D-2C;2N-3N

Quote

Hand 2

North ♠ AK72 ♥ AKJ9 ♦ 9 3  ♣ 9 7 3

South ♠9 4 ♥ T 8 6 ♦ A K 10  ♣ A K 8 5 4

1♦:2♣:?

Now do you bid the major or NT ? If you bid NT, how many ? If you bid 3NT, pard can still have a hand that could push towards slam if u leave him room to investigate at the 3 level, but that will be reluctanto to do so if u jump to 3NT. Of course if he has a battleship or a freak hand, he will go on even after 3NT, but North's hand is so good here that closing to 3NT may miss a slam even if South has a decently good opening hand.

If you bid 2NT instead, pard will pass with a minimum invitational hand.

Method 1:

1D-2C;2H-3D;3N. Opener showed 4 hearts with fewer than 5 diamonds. 3D is a suit or, as here, concentration of values and a stopper probe.

(1D-2C;2H-3C;3S-3N [3S making sure you're not missing diamond stoppers] would not be terrible.)

Method 2:

1D-2C;2N-3N

Quote

Hand 3

North ♠ 5432 ♥ KQJ9 ♦ KQJ  ♣ J7

South ♠Qx ♥ 865 ♦ xxx ♣ AKQ854

1♦:2♣:?
Should North bid 2NT (showing a minimum) even with an empty spade suit ?
Or bid hearts ? How does that fit with the answers you gave to the previous questions ?

PS-if you object that North's hand is not worth a 13-15 balanced opening, just give him the Q of clubs instead of the J of clubs (or the Ace of diamonds in place of the K of diamonds). This does not change the nature of the problem.

I would open North's hand with 1NT, but that's somewhat irrelevant.

I have no qualms with xxxx being considered a stopper, at least for the time being (over 2N you can still find out about weakness below 3N).

With South, I'd probably bid an invitational 3C directly over 1D (and opener would pass, lacking both a club fit and quick tricks).

Quote

Hand 4

Finally, a hand from the same sequence that does not look to me a "system" problem, but in which I'd rather have advice on how to reach slam once club fit was found.

North ♠ KQ ♥ T5 ♦ KQJ985  ♣ A96

South ♠ATxx ♥ AQ ♦ x  ♣  KQJ843

1♦:2♣ I assume a reasonable development may be
2♦:2♠ (game force, not necessarily 4 bagger)
3♣

From now on, how do you get to 6 clubs or 6NT(played from S) ?

As the rgb poster pointed out, North does look like a 3D rebid directly over 2C:

1D-2C;3D-3S;4C...

Now South will push to 6C, probably envoking keycard (however you bid it -- I like 4H as keycard here).

If you start with just 2D:
1D-2C;2D-2S;3C-3H;3S-4C might be a start, though some less aggressive Souths will just bid 3N over 3C.

Andy

[kfgauss]

Quote

Let me try to reformulate with my own words to see if I got that right!  (sorry I am a slow thinker    )

1D:3C is invitational only with single suited hand in clubs

Yes.

Quote

1D:2C is invitational or better
if it is invitational, then it can rebid 2NT, because invitational minimum hands that would rebid 3C over opener's rebid would simply respond 3C at the 1st round rather than bid 2C and then rebid clubs.

Your hand:
♠K82♥54♦Q97♣KQT83
won't always rebid 2NT (it shouldn't want to, for the same reasons that you didn't want to bid 2NT directly over 1D with this).

[I'd consider bidding 1NT with this hand because you open fairly light and might prefer if the SK were the SA, for example, to bid 2C.]

Let's look at various auctions (using method 1 first):
1D-2C;2D-3D pard showed 5-diamonds. Let's raise (NF).
1D-2C;2H-2NT pard is GF with 4+ hearts.. easy notrump rebid
1D-2C;2S-2NT pard is GF with 4+ spades. we rebid 2NT and will sort it out later if we should be in e.g. 4C instead of 3NT (there's room between 2NT and 3NT). Also, pard usually has some hearts on this auction
1D-2C;2N-P pard is NF with a balanced hand. easy pass

[Using method 2, you'd also bid 2NT over 1D-2C;2H showing a 4-4-4-1 hand]

Quote

That means that the auction 1D:2C;2X:3C is game force without need of faking a suit.

Yes.

Andy

[Chamaco]

Andy, thanks a lot,
your suggestions were really convincing, and, while I am aware that I will probably find difficult hands anyway, most of the fog has cleared off my mind on these sequences.

In view of this enlightening, I'd appreciate a lot comments on the next thread I am posting (1D:2D in theseame precision framwework).

Thanks !!

Mauro

[kfgauss]

Chamaco, on May 17 2004, 08:14 AM, said:

Andy, thanks a lot,
your suggestions were really convincing, and, while I am aware that I will probably find difficult hands anyway, most of the fog has cleared off my mind on these sequences.

In view of this enlightening, I'd appreciate a lot comments on the next thread I am posting (1D:2D in theseame precision framwework).

Thanks !!

Mauro

Just one more point to clarify something:

1D-2C;2M doesn't have to be balanced... you could have a club raise with a 4 card major.. these should bid the major first (e.g. 4-1-4-4).

Andy

[mishovnbg]

Read about kokish relay, instead of develop wheel again.
Misho

[Chamaco]

mishovnbg, on May 17 2004, 10:31 PM, said:

Read about kokish relay, instead of develop wheel again.
Misho

Hi Misho !
Where can I find the relevant info for applying kokish relay to this sequence (and similar)?
Thanks !!

[keylime]

Is Kokish relay really that needed after a limited opening?

[mishovnbg]

Chamaco, on May 18 2004, 02:42 AM, said:

mishovnbg, on May 17 2004, 10:31 PM, said:

Read about kokish relay, instead of develop wheel again.
Misho

Hi Misho !
Where can I find the relevant info for applying kokish relay to this sequence (and similar)?
Thanks !!

Hi Chamaco!

Instead of use me as searching machine, use your assistant in BBO forum and Google in Internet please...

http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...findpost&p=6969

http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...findpost&p=6944

Misho

[Chamaco]

Sorry Misho,

Before asking here I had tried a quick serach online (althugh not on the BB Forum...).
I searched in google but found info on Kokish realy only in strong 2♣ openings in natural systems, and I could not find info on the Precision 1D:2C or 1D:2D sequences...

Anyway thanks for youe info and suggestions, next time I'll look on my own so not to disturb.

Mauro

[bhtf]

hello all newcomer and (very bad arghh) english comprehension & writing
sorry for full bugs comings
have not read all your (wonderfull) contributions on Precision Moscito & others
(but am tring hard on)

playing some form of precision with strong hope of simplified naturals ways relativly of stdt ones (limiteds 1D 1H 1S 2T are confortables for this)

i play 1D-2C (11+ HCP) forcing only one round & MAFIA style (no major 4+) then :
1D-2C-2D (5+), 1D-2C-2NT, 1D-2C-3C : not forcings & very limiteds.
1D-2T-(2D, 2NT, 3C)-new bid : F one (2M, 2NT) or FG (others)
1D-2C-2M : local strenght or 4°, F one and nebulous.
1D-2C-3D : natural FG
1D-2C-3M : shorts FG and suggested C 3+ fit.
1D-2C-3NT for play with goods six D and something in H and S.

i like MAFIA to clarify bids in many ways. one recent exemple :
1D 2C
2H 3H
4C 4H in 4-3 fit exposed but good contract.

have fun all. Alain sure

[kfgauss]

Quote

Read about kokish relay, instead of develop wheel again.
Misho

Kokish's methods are "option 2" in my original post (unless you mean something different), and there are some problems with it here:

1) 13-15 is too wide a range to bid 2NT with, unless you think 13 is enough to be GF (When playing a standard system with a weak notrump, e.g., this is not an issue, as your notrump rebid is GF).

2) What do (41)44 (and (40)45 and, if you don't open 2C with them, (41)35 and maybe even (42)25's that aren't suitable for notrump) hands do? There isn't enough room after raising clubs to find your major-suit fit.

These can be solved by having more of a "relay"-like setup and choosing different artificial meanings for 2H/2S (and maybe even 2NT). How best to do this is something interesting to discuss (though maybe this would be more complicated than Mauro wants), but I also think that "option 1" above is a nice simple "natural" method that doesn't have the problems above (it has different ones -- weak 4441's probably bid a NF 2NT or have to force game [or lie and claim 5 diamonds], and you can't make a NF club raise [a loss, but not a huge one]).

Having said it'd be interesting to discuss such, I'll suggest one (probably not the best one, as I'm just making this up on the spot):
1D-2C;?
2D = 5+ diamonds, any
2H = Min bal or any 4441 (ie 4-4-4-1, 4-1-4-4, or 1-4-4-4). Also stick in (40)45 (treat like a 4441) and play another method if you could also have (41)35 or a (42)25 (that doesn't want to call itself bal)
2S = GF club raise
2N = GF bal (14+-15)
3C = NF club raise

Over 2H, 2S asks, and:
2N = Min bal
3C = 4-4-4-1
3D = 4-1-4-4
3H = 1-4-4-4

(maybe there's a follow-up after 3D and 3H: bidding the stiff asks whether (41)44 or (40)45, plus range info or some such)

Also over 2H, 2N tells opener to: pass with min bal or min 4-4-4-1, correct to 3C with min (41)4-4, and otherwise bid 3D (4-4-4-1), 3H (1-4-4-4), or 3S (4-1-4-4) (I'm not certain which order/bids for these three are best over 2S/2N).

Higher bids (3C+) over 2H would be rather specific, but I'm not going to think about that now (let's say they're "natural" GF and try to work out on the spot how responder should bid with the various hand types).

Andy

[keylime]

I'm still curious on how a limited hand that can define themselves naturally is not as sufficient as an artificial set of relays which was designed for yet to be limited hands.

[mishovnbg]

Chamaco, on May 18 2004, 10:24 AM, said:

Sorry Misho,

Before asking here I had tried a quick serach online (althugh not on the BB Forum...).
I searched in google but found info on Kokish realy only in strong 2♣ openings in natural systems, and I could not find info on the Precision 1D:2C or 1D:2D sequences...

Anyway thanks for youe info and suggestions, next time I'll look on my own so not to disturb.

Mauro

Hi Mauro!
To search in BBO forum, click "My Assistant" at upper right corner of window and type in field "Search posts for..." what you search, in example "kokish". You will receive as result all posts that contain searching word, similar to Google in Internet.
Happy to be useful for you!
Misho