[awm]

Of course this is an easy problem playing gazzilli (rebid 2♣ forcing) or a strong club system (open 1♣). Since most of my partnerships include one of those two methods, this isn't a hand I've had to worry about much.

Assuming no such agreements, I think I would rebid 2NT over 1♠. This hand seems fairly notrumpy to me, and that sequence maximizes my chances of finding a major suit fit (I cannot miss a nine card heart fit or an eight-card spade fit, whereas any other sequence seems to have a strong possibility of missing one of those two and/or playing in a 6-1 heart fit on this lousy suit).

I don't really mind 3♥, as I think a lot of people obsess too much about suit quality in that sequence, but here it has the additional problem of missing what could be a good spade fit. Bidding 2♥ or 2♠ seems like a big underbid to me, and 2♣ "natural" is not very appealing.

In fact I like 3♥ over 1NT, as partner will often (okay not always) deliver a doubleton heart on hands with less than four spades.

[jdonn]

Incidentally I have gotten just terrible results from rebidding 2NT with a six card major (even setting aside that the strength on this hand is wrong.) Whereas fudging a 2♣ rebid has not led to problems. I don't worry about how pretty something looks or whether it offends someone's sensibilities to bid a very short suit, just what works when it's chosen. Based purely on my experience, rebidding 2NT is the last thing I'd do.

[MarkDean]

I would open 1♥ and rebid 3♥ over either response. Yes, the suit is bad, but that is the reason we may want to play in hearts - it will take too long to set up in nt.

I would not open 1NT - just too many hand for partner where 4♥ will play better than 3NT. Then again, I have seen experts open 1NT/2NT on hands that make me cringe, so I perhaps I am just not modern enough.

[mikeh]

I would open 1♥. 1N is simply too much of a distortion and is a BIG underbid to boot.

As for moves: I have been a long time fan of the Roth 'if i can get by this round' 2♣: a treatment so useful that it has been conventionalized under a number of names.

Incidentally, after a forcing 1N response, 2♣ is low risk in many partnerships, since it is common (altho not universal) to play that 2♣ shows as few as 2 clubs... thus partner is NEVER passing with 2 hearts, and this hand isn't worth that much if partner has the 9+ minor suit cards, and weakness, that would get him passing 2♣.. the main downside is finding him with 3=1=5=4 or a horrific 3=1=6=3, unable to bid diamonds because of playing BART.

My second choice is 2N: my experience with rebidding 2N over a 1♠ or 1N response has not been as bad as josh's, and a good followup method can help here. Doesn't Fred (and others, of course) have a method of finding the 6-2 major after the 2N rebid?

As for strength: this is a GOOD hand.. pure, all controls, this hand is too strong for 1N so it can hardly be too weak for 2N... it may be 'wrong' for notrump, but that is a function of shape, not strength, imo.

[Echognome]

Mike mentioned another point which I hadn't really considered. I typically play a semi-forcing, rather than a forcing NT, so 2♣ is a much bigger distortion for me. I'm also used to playing a 1NT opening as 14-16, so rebidding 2NT is not much of a concern either. Those "small" difference can make a big difference in how you view the problem.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 9 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

Doesn't Fred (and others, of course) have a method of finding the 6-2 major after the 2N rebid?

Well that would certainly help. I think the last 3 times I did it, all of them I went down in 3NT and would have made 4 of my major in the 6-2 fit, which is why I'm so against it now.

Quote

As for strength: this is a GOOD hand.. pure, all controls, this hand is too strong for 1N so it can hardly be too weak for 2N... it may be 'wrong' for notrump, but that is a function of shape, not strength, imo.

On that I don't agree. Consider that our long suit is very bad, and yet we will only play notrump when partner has no fit at all for that suit. But maybe I'm just out there.

[dake50]

4 prime cards and my one quack attends A. I'm never opening 1N. 3H to 1S: stuff in right place; 2H to 1N: stuff unknown.

[the hog]

I don't mind 1NT, but it is taking a position. Over 1S I would bid 2S.

[fred]

Ask yourself this: If you 6-card suit was a minor, what would you think?

I believe that most would think: "this looks like a notrump hand" and I suspect the majority would open 1NT (realizing of course that they have a super-maximum). A minority (but quite possibly correct) view would be "this hand is too strong for 1NT". They would open 1 of their minor and rebid 2NT.

But the point is that there is no such thing as a notrump hand that is too good to open 1NT and not good enough to rebid 2NT. In my opinion it is counter-productive to try to find a hedge (like jump-rebidding a weak suit with a notrump hand or rebidding in a non-suit) when there is nothing to hedge about.

IMO the same reasoning applies when your 6-card suit is a major, especially if you are either prepared to give up on playing in a 4 of that major with a 6-2 fit or if you have methods over 1NT openings or 2NT rebids to uncover the long major. Even if you lack such methods, treating the actual hand as a notrump hand could easily be the least of evils action.

My opinions:

- I don't hate opening 1NT
- I don't hate opening 1H and rebidding 2NT. This is what I would probably do.
- I only semi-hate opening 1NT and rebidding 2S over 1NT.
- I completely hate opening 1H and rebidding 2H
- I completely hate opening 1H and rebidding 3H
- I completely hate opening 1H and rebidding 2C (and I am not completely adverse to doing this sort of thing with some hands with 6 hearts and 3 clubs)
- I am close to completely hating opening 1H and raising 1S to 2S
- I only semi-hate opening 1H and rebidding 3S over 1S
- "Style" was a good title for this thread, because my opinions are partly a reflection of the style that I prefer (including style issues relating to things like when to bid 1S over 1H, style with respect to the expected hand for 1H-1x-3H, style with respect to light opening bids, etc).

Finally let me say that there are players who I have a great deal of respect for who would select each of the bids I hate. The fact that I hate a given bid doesn't mean that I think anyone who would choose such a bid is a weak player.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

Fred do your methods locate a 6-2 heart fit after a 2NT rebid?

[JLOL]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2009, 09:19 PM, said:

Fred do your methods locate a 6-2 heart fit after a 2NT rebid?

Yes, he has posted them on the forums before.

[Free]

I'm a great fan of Gazzilli, which makes this hand easy: open 1♥ and rebid 2♣ Gazzilli. If partner has 8+HCP, he'll rebid 2♦, in which case you can bid 2♠ showing 16+HCP and exactly 3♠s. If partner has less than 8HCP, he'll bid 2♥ with a doubleton, or otherwise describe his hand (2♠ would show 5+♠).

[fred]

jdonn, on Apr 10 2009, 02:19 AM, said:

Fred do your methods locate a 6-2 heart fit after a 2NT rebid?

I am not sure I would describe it that way, but responder can say "I have 2-card support for your major - decide what game you want to play".

Justin is right that I have made a post about this before, but I am not sure when that was and at some point Brad and I changed the way we do this. The way we do this now is: over 2NT, responder transfers to opener's major and then bids 3NT.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Phil]

If there are some splinter mechanisms available you can back into a 6-2 if partner doesn't use any of these calls- for instance:

1N - 3♥ - 31(45) - check
1N - 2N - clubs or any 4441 - check
1N - 2♠ - (12)55 - check

21(64) or 31(63)? I'll concede these.

So - just bid 4♥ after 1N - 3N. Easy game.

[Valardent]

Hi,

In a standard system, I wld open 1NT (not sure I wld at the table but I like the bid)

In "my" pet system, those kind of hands are easely developped through gazzilli.

I read an interview of Fantoni who was asked : "If U would recommend one convention, what would it be?"

Response was : "Gazzilli"

I cannot agree more.

Playing kaplan inversion which I play as 1S showing 0 to 4 spades and 1NT showing 5+ spades helps a lot too by rightsiding the contract and by making it easier for opener to locate right away a spade fit.

Patrick

[FrancesHinden]

I hate 1NT.
If the heart suit were a minor, I would still dislike 1NT as I would consider the hand too good, but I would dislike it less.

I have an occasional partner who occasionally opens 1NT with a 6-card major, it always seems to get a bad result. The only time I've done it was a long way down in a KO match when I was deliberately trying to swing (it gained a game swing, but we still lost the match).

As for what I rebid after opening 1H, that depends what partner bids. After a semi-forcing NT I would show a 2.5 heart rebid using my favourite method. After 1S I would probably rebid 2NT, although I'm not desperately happy with it.

[kenrexford]

Hmmm. Super Puppet 3♣.

1NT-P-3♣-P-?

3NT = 4-4 majors
3♠ = 6 spades
3♥ = 5-6 hearts (3♠ asks)
3♦ = 2-5 spades, 2-4 hearts, not 4-4 majors

After 3♦, Responder can bid 3♥ to ask about the spade length:

3NT = 2-3 spades
3♠ = 4♠ (2-3 hearts)
4♣+ = 5♠

After 3♦, Responder can bid 3♠ to ask for four hearts (3NT denies)

Many hands can be handled through regular Stayman if this structure does not work. But, iIf Responder has the "problem hand" of 4♥/3♠, he could bid 2♣ also and over 2♠ bid 3♥, ostensibly agreeing spades. If Opener only has four spades, Opener bids 3NT.

Naw!!! Too silly.

[foo]

JLOL, on Apr 9 2009, 02:19 AM, said:

AQx ATxxxx Kx Kx r/w imps.

Do you open 1N?

If you open 1H what are you rebidding over 1S by pard? What about 1N by pard?

The "book" way to bid this hand playing either SA or 2/1 GF is

1H-blah;3H

That shows 6+H and 15-17 or 16-18 HCP.

Looks like a pretty accurate description of AQx_ATxxxx_Kx_Kx to me.

If you want to get Science involved, there are some who play that
1H-1S;3C! or 1M-1N;3C! is artificial and include 6+M as one of the hand types included. (Playing this treatment, 1M-blah;3M promises 7+M and the HCP range I listed above)

The use of an artificial 3C! has many advantages. One of them is making it easier to diagnose a double fit in the Majors here.

[JLOL]

foo, on Apr 18 2009, 03:01 AM, said:

JLOL, on Apr 9 2009, 02:19 AM, said:

AQx ATxxxx Kx Kx r/w imps.

Do you open 1N?

If you open 1H what are you rebidding over 1S by pard? What about 1N by pard?

The "book" way to bid this hand playing either SA or 2/1 GF is

1H-blah;3H

That shows 6+H and 15-17 or 16-18 HCP.

Looks like a pretty accurate description of AQx_ATxxxx_Kx_Kx to me.

ty, I had not considered this.

Sorry, not much need for a thread on this guys.

[foo]

No sweat. I note that Fred hates (his word) the "book" bid...