[jillybean]

Play 3♠ in;

1nt :2♦ (15-17 nt)
2♥:3♦
3♠

[hanp]

Good to discuss. It certainly denies 3 hearts. Some might play it shoes a decent hand for diamonds that doesn't want to commit past 3NT. Others might play that it shows stuff in spades and suspect clubs.

[Phil]

hanp, on Apr 4 2009, 08:59 PM, said:

Good to discuss. It certainly denies 3 hearts. Some might play it shoes a decent hand for diamonds that doesn't want to commit past 3NT. Others might play that it shows stuff in spades and suspect clubs.

Or both.

[Ant590]

If you include 5M332 hands I think it should show 5 spades, in case partner is 3=5=4=1 etc.

If not, my gut reaction is it should show diamond support.

Transfer extensions rule!

[dicklont]

Five spades.

With diamond support just raise diamonds, why make things harder than they have to be?
With 3♦ partner is looking for slam, right? So bidding over 3NT is not a problem.

With heart support you have a problem, when you want to investigate slam you don't bid 4♥.
So you could argue that 3♠ is a cue for hearts.

[whereagles]

hanp, on Apr 5 2009, 01:59 AM, said:

Good to discuss. It certainly denies 3 hearts. Some might play it shoes a decent hand for diamonds that doesn't want to commit past 3NT. Others might play that it shows stuff in spades and suspect clubs.

After a couple bad boards because of bidding spades with 3 card heart support, I decided that any bid that's not 3♥ denies 3 hearts.

I would then play 3♠ as "no hearts, spade stop, worries of club stop".

[kenrexford]

IMO, this sequence is wildly different from slightly different auctions, each of which should probably be discussed together.

Compare 1NT-2♦-2♥-3♦ with 1NT-2♦-2♥-3♣.

After the latter, 3♦ can serve as a club flag (something nice to say about clubs), freeing 3♠ as natural (in case Responder has 3505/3514). The same cannot be said for the first sequence. In the first, then, the question is whether you want to introduce spades naturally below 3NT more often than you want to introduce diamond agreement without bypassing 3NT.

Compare, then, the parallel sequences where spades is Responder's focus suit.

1NT-2♥-2♠-3♣ and 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♦.

The same basic principle seems to apply here. However, if you use Muppet 3♣ (1NT-3♣ as Muppet Stayman), then Responder can bid 3♣...3♠ with 5♠/3♥. Because of that option, your need for Opener to introduce a five-card heart suit naturally is essentially, or for the most part, erased.

If your 3♣ is even more sophisticated, then the entire need for a natural bid is erased. If the 3♣ call can handle any 4-4 or 5-3 or 3-5 major suit exploration, as some almost can, then the issue further is resolved.

The most common 3♣ call to handle much of everything has two exception, however. One is when Responder has 5♥/4♠ and cannot handle a 3♦ reply by pener, but that problem is handled well with normal Stayman and Smolen if the notrump opening is at the mere one-level. The second is when Responder has 5♠/3♥ and cannot handle the 3♥ response. However, half of that problem is solved where 2♥ as a transfer is followed by a club rebid and hearts can be introduced.

So, it seems that the major lurking specific problem hand, if 3♣ takes away a lot of the pressure, is when Responder has 5♠/3♥/4♦/1♣ or 5♠/3♥/5♦/0♣. I'll bet that there is some obscure sequence where a call has no meaning, or where some dumb default has been assigned. For me, that situation is after a 2NT relay and a 3NT rebid (1NT-2NT-3♣-3NT), which could handle this pattern (on the low end) or an immediate 1NT-4♠ (if too strong to enable a pass of 3NT).

That said, the other problem is when Responder cannot bypass 3NT himself to introduce the minor and has one of these patterns. But, this now tailors what thoughts one should have about the ideal meaning for the other-major call when the new minor is diamonds. For, we can now surmise that Responder does not have three cards in the other major (when the other major is hearts) unless he has a hand unworthy of entrance into the 4-level on his own. What to take from that is uncertain.

[JLOL]

hanp, on Apr 4 2009, 08:59 PM, said:

Good to discuss. It certainly denies 3 hearts. Some might play it shoes a decent hand for diamonds that doesn't want to commit past 3NT. Others might play that it shows stuff in spades and suspect clubs.

agree

[Mbodell]

I play it is a cue in support of diamonds. 3♦ is a gf, non-3♥ bids by nt hand take hearts out of the picture. Making the cue doesn't commit us to play in ♦ versus 3nt, but it suggests some interest in 6♦ if that is at all in the cards.

[rogerclee]

JLOL, on Apr 5 2009, 01:48 PM, said:

hanp, on Apr 4 2009, 08:59 PM, said:

Good to discuss. It certainly denies 3 hearts. Some might play it shoes a decent hand for diamonds that doesn't want to commit past 3NT. Others might play that it shows stuff in spades and suspect clubs.

agree

I play that it is primarily a probe for 3N, it's really important to be able to show doubt about strain in situations like this IMO.

[jdonn]

Playing it shows spades or playing it shows (essentially) weak clubs is almost exactly the same thing. 3244 with four small clubs is not even worth worrying about, and 3253 is just one unlikely shape and would probably raise diamonds anyway, so other than those it would show 4+ spades. And whether it shows 5 spades on any hand (without a heart fit) or 4-5 spades with weak clubs, you probably want your partner to bid the same way over it, so I think the distinction is a lot of ado about nothing.

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with jdonn.

It shows three things for definite:
- a doubleton heart
- spade values
- a lack of desire to bid 3NT

Anything else is just splitting hairs

IMO responder should show hearts and diamonds whenever she has a hand that might want to play in 5D, or in 4H in a 5-2 fit. That means that 3D isn't a slam try, it's merely a game force. Hence opener needs a bid over 3D that expresses doubt about 3NT without having to commit to 4D. Of course, if opener has good clubs and poor spades, she is stuck bidding 3NT and hoping for the best.

Here are a pair of hands:
opener
♠AKQx
♥Kx
♦Qxxx
♣Jxx

♠Jx
♥AQJxx
♦Axxx
♣xx

1NT - 2D
2H - 3D
3S - 4H
P

change them slightly to

♠AQJx
♥Qx
♦KQxx
♣Qxx

♠K10x
♥AJ10xx
♦Axxx
♣x

1NT - 2D
2H - 3D
3S - 4S
P