[shevek]

In the final of a recent national championship in Australia, both pairs committed the kind of auction that gives Acol a bad name:

Scoring: IMP

1♥ - 2♣
2♦ - 3♥
pass

---

At least one of the Easts was surprised by the sudden end to the auction.

Crowhurst's "Precision Bidding in Acol" (1974) lists this sequence as invitational. He also has 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥ as "not absolutly forcing."
I'm guessing that more modern texts have changed all this.
Is that true and when did it happen? Is there some new Acol authority?

[helene_t]

I don't think it is forcing in standard English Acol. Some pairs at the local club play it as forcing, some as non-forcing, most have no clue whether it is forcing or not.

[whereagles]

In french standard, this is absolutely forcing. With an invitational hand you bid 2♥. With 12-14 or so you bid 4♥.

In ACOL, I believe the rule is "all jumps are limit bids", so in this case 3♥ is supposed to be NF. (Probably not the best rule around, but at least it's consistent.. )

[Old York]

With 8 raw losers, East has no reason to force
West obviously took the view that there were wasted values in clubs, and chose to pass.
West has not guaranteed a 5 card suit on this auction, could be 4441
Perhaps 2♠ (4SF) might be better than 3♥ ?
On a good day 4♥ will make, on a bad day it goes down

This is not a systemic flaw, just a bad example of good judgement

Tony

[deffe]

fghjfgjfghj

[FrancesHinden]

It's not forcing in Acol, it shows an invitational hand with three hearts.

(Although opener could be 4441 exactly, the sequence 'shows' five hearts and four diamonds)

[hanp]

How can east be surprised? That's very strange to me. If they thought that 3H was gameforcing and they wanted to force, wouldn't they have bid 4H?

[P_Marlowe]

#1 1H - 2C
2D - 3H

Non forcing.
If you want to create a game forcing seq., you have to go via 2S.

Looking at the East hand, I would say that this hand is an inv. raise
nothing more nothing less, hence 3H can be passed, espesially if
you keep in mind, that Acol is light opening system.
Make the Jack of diamonds disapper, and you still have an opening,
it would also be an Acol opening, if the King of diamonds would be
the Queen instead.

#2 1D - 1S
2H -

Forcing.

But the Crowhurst comment makes some sense, because 3H instead
of 2H would also be natural and a clear game force.
Now most player would agree, that the advantage to play 2H as
nonforcing to cater for a weak 1S response is lower than the
disadvantage to bid 3H instead of 2H to create a forcing auction.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[shevek]

P_Marlowe, on Mar 25 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

#1 1H - 2C
    2D - 3H
   
    Non forcing.
    If you want to create a game forcing seq., you have to go via 2S.

    Looking at the East hand, I would say that this hand is an inv. raise
    nothing more nothing less, hence 3H can be passed, espesially if
    you keep in mind, that Acol is light opening system.
    Make the Jack of diamonds disapper, and you still have an opening,
    it would also be an Acol opening, if the King of diamonds would be
    the Queen instead.

I've heard it said that Acol is a light opening system but I believe that is no longer true. Perhaps in the 60s & 70s when Roth had a big influence on American bidding.
These days, would someone look at this

♠Axxx  ♥Kxxxx  ♦QJxx  ♣—

and say "I'd open in Acol but pass in Standard." ?

Either you do or you don't.

[1eyedjack]

The sequence is traditionally non-forcing in (english style) Acol and is still taught as non-forcing in standard english acol.

That said, there is an emerging trend among modern players who stick with Acol as the basis of their system but insist on tweaking it (as you do), for this sequence to be forcing, and I have to say that in my view it makes a lot of sense.

This emerging(?) modern style (in fact I would say that it has been around for some time), uses a slightly higher than traditional bare minimum for a 2/1 response.

In traditional acol with a weak 1N the sequence 1H-2C-2N shows 15-16 and is non-forcing. Most modern acol players (despite what it says on the EBU website) accept that this is an inefficient use of bids. It is sufficiently infrequent that responder will want to pass that it makes more sense for the 2N rebid to have a wider range and be GF, taking strain off the 3N rebid. This has I think in part driven up (just slightly) the minimum response for a 2/1, to increase the safety in the 2N rebid being GF. You still get into a few tight 3N spots, but the trade-off is worth it. It still can't guarantee the strength of a full-blown american 2/1 (even a non GF style one) because you don't want opener to be embarrassed as to whether to pass or raise a 1N response with a 15 to (poor?) 16 count. The stress in this area is certainly a weakness in the weak 1N, but one of many factors in that argument that is not the subject of this thread.

Once you have driven up the minimum requirements for a 2/1, the window of strength required for a simple preference by responder at the 2 level (following a 2/1) can cope reasonably well with an invitiational hand, freeing up the jump support to show a GF hand, and I know a lot of good players who adopt this method.

So that is no longer Acol? Perhaps, but you won't find many experienced partnerships playing Acol the way that it is taught in schools, but they at least still call it Acol.

On the hand in question I worry that whichever method I played I may get to the wrong spot, but that is a judgemental point. West is light on high cards but has nice distribution, until he hears partner bid his void suit, in which responder happens to hold no wasted values.

[deffe]

jgkgjhk

[1eyedjack]

deffe, on Mar 26 2009, 09:12 AM, said:

thus

1♥-2♣-2NT is forcing (and we have it as 15-17

I feel that you lose much of the benefit gained from making 2N forcing if you assign a narrow range to it.

[deffe]

ghjkhjkghjk

[Gerben42]

Quote

I'm guessing that more modern texts have changed all this.
Is that true and when did it happen? Is there some new Acol authority?

3♥ was nonforcing, to force responder should have bid 2NT, which is forcing in the modern style.

I don't think it's a good idea to open 1♥ with 4441 and a singleton ♣ and prefer 1♦. At least after 1♦ - 2♣ there is room for some gadget.

About 1♥ - 2♣ - 2NT, in Acol I play it as natural GF or a 15+ 1-suiter in ♥, reserving a direct 3♥ to show an even better hand.

[1eyedjack]

hanp, on Mar 25 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

How can east be surprised? That's very strange to me. If they thought that 3H was gameforcing and they wanted to force, wouldn't they have bid 4H?

I think that 4H would have been nonforcing also

[helene_t]

Gerben42, on Mar 26 2009, 10:17 AM, said:

3♥ was nonforcing, to force responder should have bid 2NT, which is forcing in the modern style.

I don't think it's a good idea to open 1♥ with 4441 and a singleton ♣ and prefer 1♦. At least after 1♦ - 2♣ there is room for some gadget.

About 1♥ - 2♣ - 2NT, in Acol I play it as natural GF or a 15+ 1-suiter in ♥, reserving a direct 3♥ to show an even better hand.

Lol, doesn't sound what you play is what is generally called "Acol" in Acol-land

2NT by responder is surely nonforcing.

[Gerben42]

No, but it's needed to fix the system

This hand is just unlucky, responder has nothing in his long suit and partner didn't value his void so much. The only way to reach game is for East to say that since partner didn't raise ♣, that's good for him

[FrancesHinden]

I agree that 2NT is natural invitational.

Acol is a limit bidding system. So you pass or bid 2H on a minimum, bid 2NT/3C/3D/3H with an invite, and do something else with a game force.

The messy hands are the slam tries with 3-card heart support, they have to go through fourth suit.

[shevek]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 26 2009, 05:14 AM, said:

I agree that 2NT is natural invitational.

Acol is a limit bidding system.  So you pass or bid 2H on a minimum, bid 2NT/3C/3D/3H with an invite, and do something else with a game force.

The messy hands are the slam tries with 3-card heart support, they have to go through fourth suit.

Pass?

Surely not.
Even Reese came to advocate that a sequence like

1♥  -  2♣
2♦

was forcing (I think, can't find the reference)

[helene_t]

Yes, but it still seems to be non-forcing in the Standard English Acol system file. Most people at the local club play it as forcing.