[matmat]

♠ Q
♥ xx
♦ AKT9xxx
♣ Axx

imps, dealer, both vul.

1♦ - (1♥) - 1♠ - (3♥)
?

[kenrexford]

4♦

[TimG]

I'm curious what most people would play double as in this situation? (Whatever it means, I don't think my hand is good enough.)

[JLOL]

pass

[JLOL]

TimG, on Mar 24 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

I'm curious what most people would play double as in this situation?

Extra values and takeout. 18 to 19 bal with no stopper, maybe 3154 3163, 2164 etc.

I think "standard" is penalty, but that expert standard is what I said.

[jdonn]

Easy pass.

[neilkaz]

Pass for me. PD gets another call. 4♦ is a bit pushy here with two small in ♥

[mikeh]

pass

We have the death holding in hearts, so to make anything, we need partner to have values, and he usually will not pass in that situation. Any bid here will show a more powerfull hand than we hold.

[mtvesuvius]

Pass. Partner has another bid.

[matmat]

hmmm... ok. guess this one isn't even close. oh well

[kenrexford]

Rather surprised by all the passes.

The opponents almost assuredly have a nine-fit. People do not have a tendency to preempt vulnerable without a real four-fit. Our hand is one-suit oriented, and we have a five-loser hand. The spade Queen went for nothing in the LTC count but surely has value. Give partner an interesting minimum, like spade King, club King, doubleton diamond, and 4♦ is a fair contract.

Asking partner to bid in this situation is crazy, IMO. He needs about a stiff in support for a 3+ suit to have a fit, and he will not likely view the stiff deuce of diamonds as establishing a fit. However, he is fairly likely to have values but no idea what to do about it, after the 3♥ call. If he does not have values, 4♥ is about to be bid anyway, so who cares if 4♦ was possibly an overreach?

[keylime]

The two dead hearts, and very so-so club holding discourages me. If pard has something he/she will double or bid, and I can go from there.

[Phil]

kenrexford, on Mar 24 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

However, he is fairly likely to have values but no idea what to do about it, after the 3♥ call.

He'll double and we'll have an easy 4♦ call.

[FrancesHinden]

matmat, on Mar 24 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

hmmm... ok. guess this one isn't even close. oh well

I think it's close. At matchpoints I'd bid 4D.

If partner doubles 3H we don't have an 'easy' 4D call, we have about 2 playing tricks too many. If I pass now and partner doubles I would bid 5D.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Mar 24 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

If he does not have values, 4♥ is about to be bid anyway, so who cares if 4♦ was possibly an overreach?

Partner does when he wrongly bids 5♦ or doubles 4♥ or looks for a slam. Besides, you are using "does not have values" VERY loosely, if he is a fairly minimum response then the opponents just have half the deck, they aren't just automatically bidding game.

[lonesome31]

Not really bad playing value, but non-support on partner's suit. I will pass, & waitng partner action.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Mar 24 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Mar 24 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

If he does not have values, 4♥ is about to be bid anyway, so who cares if 4♦ was possibly an overreach?

Partner does when he wrongly bids 5♦ or doubles 4♥ or looks for a slam. Besides, you are using "does not have values" VERY loosely, if he is a fairly minimum response then the opponents just have half the deck, they aren't just automatically bidding game.

If in this sequence (LHO now bids 4♥) partner either doubles or bids 5♦, I am fairly certain that his bid or double will be right. If he bids 5♦ after a pass, I feel equally assured. The ONLY risk is that he passes and I am slaughtered, IMO. Any action other than pass makes me happy.

I also don't get your Part II. If the opponents have half the deck, and a nine-fit, I think the odds are fairly good that they are bidding game at IMP's, except when diamonds split 2-2, which is good for me if I declare.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Mar 24 2009, 03:25 PM, said:

If in this sequence (LHO now bids 4♥) partner either doubles or bids 5♦, I am fairly certain that his bid or double will be right.  If he bids 5♦ after a pass, I feel equally assured.  The ONLY risk is that he passes and I am slaughtered, IMO.  Any action other than pass makes me happy.

That contradicts your previous assertion that it doesn't matter if 4♦ is an overbid. How can you really believe a bid may be an overbid but that anything partner does opposite it will be right? All you are saying is your partner has bad judgment.

I will say it more specifically. If partner raises 4♦ to 5♦ it is very likely to go down.

Quote

I also don't get your Part II.  If the opponents have half the deck, and a nine-fit, I think the odds are fairly good that they are bidding game at IMP's, except when diamonds split 2-2, which is good for me if I declare.

You must get it, since it appears to have convinced you to downgrade from that if partner is minimum they will bid 4♥ to they are fairly likely to bid 4♥.

[kenrexford]

A fit-dependent hand can be "ovbervalued" when you don't know about the fit, but correctly valued (or even undervalued) when the fit becomes apparent.

Thus, if I bid 4♦ into a void, I may have overreached. If partner bids 5♦, this "proves" my valuation as accurate.

You should know that, Josh.

"If partner raises 4♦ to 5♦, it is very likely to go down."

???

If partner freely raises 4♦ to 5♦, I disagree that it is very likely to go down. If partner raises 4♦ to 5♦ with an intervening 4♥ call, I don't care if it goes down, as I want to declare. If I am set one trick, and 4♥ would be set on trick, at least my insurance premium was relatively low. But, both might make. Certainly, 4♥ might make.


As to your last point. I have AK-A in the minors, right? That's 11 HCP. I also have the spade Queen, for a total of 13 HCP. If the opponents have half the deck, that's 33 HCP. 40-33=7. 7 is not a minimum. A minimum is about 3-4. If partner has 3-4, then we have 16-17 combined, yielding 23-24 for the opponents, nefore counting distribution.

So, again, if partner has a minimum 3-5, they WILL bid game. If partner has an average/middling 6-8, they are FAIRLY LIKELY to bid game.