[FrancesHinden]

Scoring: IMP

1♠ P 2♦ P
2♥ P 3♣* P ?
*read text

---

Playing a "friendly" match between two teams of 16, imps, you have this hand.
You open 1♠


Here are three different auctions

1.
You open 1♠. Partner responds 2♦ in an Acol or SA context (not FG)
You rebid 2♥
Partner bids 3♣, FSF to game

What do you bid?

2.
You open 1♠. Partner responds 2♦, forcing to game
You rebid 2♥. Partner bids 3♦, showing a good diamond suit. 3♣ from partner would have been fourth suit forcing.

What do you bid?

3.
You open 1♠. Partner responds 2♦, forcing to game
You rebid 2♥, artificial, denying six spades and being either 12-14/18-19 balanced, or 5-4 with spades and hearts/clubs, or a minimum 5-5 without good suits.
Partner bids 3♦ showing very good diamonds and showing no interest in whether you have a side suit or not (partner's alternatives were 2♠ relay, 2NT showing three spades, 3♣ and 3♥ natural)

What do you bid?

Is your answer different on these different auctions?

(Yes, there were 8 tables, but I think every auction was one of the three above, with the majority being the first)

[P_Marlowe]

#1 3H
Depends on your agreement, but for me 3H showes 5-5,
since I have 5-5, thats what I bid

#2 3H, again showing 5-5, 3H describes my hand best, and
I dont have a club stopper

#3 3H, should show the 5-5, min hand?
Again, I dont have a club stopper, and no diamond support.
Since I am not familar with the agreements of this scenario
I am not 100% sure, but if 3H showes the min. hand with 5-5,
I think 3H is best.

So my answer is always the same: 3H.

In the scenario #3 responder knowes most after a 3H bid, because
3H limits the hand, which is not really the case with #1 (2H being forcing,
even in an Acol context?) and #2.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

Nr 1: I have no diamond support, no club stopper and a fifth heart, this is a wtp 3 HEart.

Nr 2: 3 HEarts seems to describe my hand still well.

In both cases 3 NT could work much better, rightsiding the queen of clubs in case we have no major fit and partner Axx in clubs. But I hope that 3 HEart works better in the long run.

Nr 3: This is no wtp at all. Now 3 Spade is my choice. Partner is not interessted in my side suit and I have denied a sixth spade already. So I show my really good spade suit. Maybe 3 NT had worked better, but I cannot bring myself to make a bid which shows 12-14 balanced with this hand.

[whereagles]

1 & 2: seems like an easy 3♥.

3: from your description, pard seems to have a slammish diamond 1 suiter. Since my hand is yucky for slam purposes, I'll just make the most discouraging bid available: 3NT.

[Fluffy]

3NT on your system frances, on the others I will go the 3♥ route.


EDIT: errr I am bidding 3NT to DENY ♦ support, if your Meta-agreements are that NT bids are to show balanced hand, hence support, I would rather bid 3♥ again.

[hrothgar]

Thanks for an interesting post:

I'm torn between bidding 3♥ and 3NT

In favor of 3N

3NT is our most likely game
I think that it will play better with a club lead coming in to my hand
Yes, I would prefer either Axx or Kxx in Clubs, but beggers can't be chosers

In favor of 3♥

I have the right shape
I won't feel so bad about showing the club stop

I suspect that I would bid

3♥ in auction 1

3N in auctions 2 and 3

[EricK]

In 1 and 2 I bid 3♥ expecting the auction to often continue 3♠ 3NT.

In 3 I bid 3NT. If partner isn't interested in my side suits, I'm not telling him about it (although it depends to some extent about what "good suits" mean in this context)

[mikeh]

1. a wtp (honestly) 3♥

2. I'm not sure I understand the method: in particular the use to which 3♣ would be put... would it specifically show a weak, stopperless club holding, or some very, very good hand? I assume so, but (as I said) I am not sure I understand the method. If that assumption is correct, then I have to ask whether there is a systemic inference that partner will usually hold a club value (or shortness) for 3♦. After all, he could bid 3♣ to elicit an informed diamond preference. Anyway, all of that was musing to see if I could rationalize a 3N call, but I can't. 3♥ it is, and this wasn't a wtp.

3. Ugh... tiap (this is a problem): I choose 3♠.. partner can do with it what he/she wants. At least he or she knows that I am bidding a chunky spade suit so can probably infer that I am 5-5 or 5-4 with a minimum unsuited for 3N.. and that seems to fit the bill.

[FrancesHinden]

Well problem (2) I made up, I don't play the method, but I think it's standard English 2/1 style still to play fourth suit forcing.

Perhaps I should give partner's hand in a different thread and see what you bid over the 3H "wtp"...

Partner has
x
Kx
AKQJ9xx
Jxx

obviously the only making game is 3NT.

I'm am not convinced that 3h is the "wtp" answer on the first and second auctions. I think there's quite a lot to be said for 3S.

We got there on auction (3), but this wasn't really meant as an advertisement for our complex methods.

[y66]

3. Responder is not interested in my side suit (hearts). I can bid 3H to clarify my shape or I can bid 3S to clarify my spade holding. I think 3S is more helpful for purposes of choosing between 3N and game or slam in diamonds. So, 3S.

[mtvesuvius]

1. wtp 3♥
2. A bit tougher, but still a fairly easy 3♥.
3. I will bid 3♥ to show my 5-5... From this partner knows 10 of my cards, and can choose to do what he wishes with it. I have at most 2♦ now, and I think partner should be playing NT to protect and tenaces he has.

Conclusion: 3♥

[Codo]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 24 2009, 10:21 PM, said:

Well problem (2) I made up, I don't play the method, but I think it's standard English 2/1 style still to play fourth suit forcing.

Perhaps I should give partner's hand in a different thread and see what you bid over the 3H "wtp"...

Partner has
x
Kx
AKQJ9xx
Jxx

obviously the only making game is 3NT.

I'm am not convinced that 3h is the "wtp" answer on the first and second auctions. I think there's quite a lot to be said for 3S.

We got there on auction (3), but this wasn't really meant as an advertisement for our complex methods.

In nr 2:

When you bid 3 NT after partners "wtp" 3 HEart bid, what will that show?

As you bid 4sf but without being interessted in the majors, the only possible hand can be a hand without a club stopper. The only question is: Do you need a full or half a stopper from partner?

Or is 4 sf forcing followed by 3 NT a totally different hand and it shows........?

[gnasher]

mikeh, on Mar 23 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

2. I'm not sure I understand the method: in particular the use to which 3♣ would be put... would it specifically show a weak, stopperless club holding, or some very, very good hand?

It would show a hand without another good bid, so prototypically a 2353 shape without a club stop. It would never be used in preference to a descriptive forcing bid, regardless of strength.

I think this is an area where teminology varies between different countries. I (and Frances, I assume) would regard the primary meaning of "Fourth Suit Forcing" as "I want you to describe your hand.". This meaning readily translates to an already game-forcing situation such as this. Do others view it as closer to "I want my next bid to be forcing"?