[TimG]

I'm interested in hearing from both those who play a natural NT overcall and those who prefer 1N to be some sort of takeout.

Which of 2x and 2y are natural? What about double followed by a minimum bid in x or y?

Is double two-suited takeout, or is it takeout of x or y?

[fromageGB]

Once the opps bid a suit, it is never natural if we bid it.
2x would be a strong unspecified hand, double then x or y would be a stopper in that, denying the other, looking for no trumps.

1NT even in the sandwich position is a Raptor, with exactly 4 cards in the major and 5+ in the minor. If x and y were both the same rank, 1NT is a distributional takeout as opposed to a strength takeout.

[fromageGB]

TimG, on Mar 17 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Posts : 2171
Member No: 2171

Bet you can't do that again !

[awm]

I like the following somewhat non-standard approach:

1NT = takeout for the other two suits, can be light, fairly wide range like 8-15
Double = takeout of RHO's suit (Y), often includes support for X, quite sound (like 13+)
Bid either of opponents suits = natural
2NT = very shapely light takeout

1X-P-1Y-P-1Z-P-P-Dbl or 1X-P-1Y-P-2X-P-P-Dbl = takeout of LHO's suit (X), normally includes support for Y, fairly sound; this is often converted to penalties because of the location of our side's strength in the various opposition suits.

1X-P-1Y-P-2Y-P-P-Dbl = light takeout of Y

My observation is that when I hold the strong notrump hand, while it's possible that opponents are bidding on air, by far the majority of the time it's a partscore deal. Often we will do better by defending a doubled contract rather than playing in 1NT or trying to bid a thin game. These methods are optimized to let us defend when possible (especially when our strength in each of their suits is positioned behind their length).

[ArtK78]

1NT - other two suits. Tends to have more shape and less HCP than a double.
Dbl - other two suits. Tends to have less shape and more HCP than 1NT.
2x and 2y - both natural.

[jdonn]

My preferences.

Double is takeout. It's worth discussing the responses. You can make a case that partner responding in one of their suits should be natural, but certainly he needs at least one cuebid. And if you give him two cuebids, discuss how you want them to differ.
1NT is natural. I used to think it should be very sound, like good 16 to 19, but now I have dropped it to maybe good 15 to 19. A bit risky for sure, but also necessary I think. Even if we don't have game, you will pick up partscores too. I think 1NT as a light takeout is relatively useless.
2x and 2y are both natural.

[keylime]

1NT by unpassed hand = natural, system on.
1NT by passed hand = shapely two suited takeout, at least 5-5.
(1x) P (1y) 2y = natural, normally a six carder.

[Lobowolf]

ArtK78, on Mar 17 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

1NT - other two suits. Tends to have more shape and less HCP than a double.
Dbl - other two suits. Tends to have less shape and more HCP than 1NT.
2x and 2y - both natural.

This is how I play it, as well.

[FrancesHinden]

My preferences

Double is takeout, showing the other two suits. It's worth discussing the responses. I play that partner responding in opener's suit is natural, but in responder's suit is a cue bid.

1NT is natural. I used to think it should be very sound, like good 16 to 19, but now I have dropped it to maybe good 15 to 19. A bit risky for sure, but also necessary I think. Even if we don't have game, you will pick up partscores too.

In response to 1NT I play everything except the cue bid of responder's suit as natural, simple bids weak, jumps strong (a jump in responder's suit is strong, if it were ever to come up).

In one partnership I play 2x and 2y as both natural. In the other I play the cue of opener's suit as a 5-5 two-suiter, and responder's suit as natural.

[TimG]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 17 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

Double is takeout, showing the other two suits. It's worth discussing the responses. I play that partner responding in opener's suit is natural, but in responder's suit is a cue bid.

That seems a reasonable choice since you could pass with responder's suit (even if you are under the bidder) some of the time.

[Codo]

1 NT is natural,
double is a take out 4/4 or 4/5
2 NT is a take out with 5+/5+
2y is natural when y was a major.
2 x is a cuebid.

[skjaeran]

I play 1NT as natural, good 15 to 18(19).
Double is t/o
2x is a cuebid
2y is natural

[fromageGB]

A common thread for most people is that 2y is natural, maybe 6 cards. Do you do it with the intention of playing in a 6/1 fit with known bad breaks?

[whereagles]

Dbl: take out with full values
2x: two-suited, michaels style
2y: natural, usually 6 cards, but can be good 5 carder
2NT: 55+ weak, very offensive hand
3x and 3y: natural

Now for the 1NT bid.

I once did some statistics on it and it seemed that a 16-19 balanced hand would be, on average, outgunned, making the natural overcall a bit risky. This took into account that opener and responder could be as low as 10/3 hcp for their bids.

However, in practice I've had people using the bid as natural against me and I could really never cash out on their (supposedly) frisky overcall.

I do use 1NT as a weakish take out, geared towards finding a sacrifice, but apparently using as natural isn't as bad as I first tought.

[mikeh]

I used to play 1n as takeout, then got to play for the first time in a partnership with a very good, thoughtful player, who insisted that we use is as strong and natural, and he was right, imo.

Given what people open and respond with these days (take a look at posters on this forum) there is a real chance that we can bid and make 3N even after 1x - P - 1y - ?!

Plus, the balanced notrump allows us to get out at the 2-level on many hands and on many others, our playing 1N is par or better than par.

Finally, since opener cannot rely upon responder having values, opener is often constrained to pass our 1N... a double shows a big hand, and a raise of responder's suit lets us off the hook. And after opener passes, say with a moderate hand, responder is faced with the problem that opener may have a misfitting minimum. So while I can accept, for the purposes of argument, that 1N strong and natural is prone to frequent bad scores, in real life the opps often can't get there from here.

Thus the upside of the strong bid is undeniable, and not readily accomplished by co-opting the double to include this hand type, while the downside is nowhere nearly as bad, in practice, as it may seem to be in reality.

I made the switch 15 years ago and have never regretted it.

As for the others, after 1X p 1Y, I use Y as natural (and think it a major mistake not to do so) and X as takeout except with one partner who prefers natural, and I am increasingly of the view that that is a good method.

I really don't think there is much utility in being able to show a weak 2-suiter (except with extreme shape), after 1m p 1M.

Partner couldn't bid over 1minor, and often all we do by our 'weak takeout' is make the opps' job much easier by allowing them to place cards. So giving up the ability to show a 5/4 or 4/5 or such 8-10 count is not much of a loss in the real world.

[fromageGB]

mikeh, on Mar 18 2009, 09:52 PM, said:

... after 1X p 1Y, I use Y as natural (and think it a major mistake not to do so)

Why, if I may ask ?

[mikeh]

fromageGB, on Mar 18 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 18 2009, 09:52 PM, said:

... after 1X p 1Y, I use Y as natural (and think it a major mistake not to do so)

Why, if I may ask ?

Virtually all players will respond in a major with no regard to suit quality and often on very weak hands.

Holding, say, KQ108xx in spades, with, say, an outside A, I would be horrified if I were not allowed to bid a natural 2♠ over a 1♠ response on my right.

Not only may we have a playable spot in spades (even game...and, yes, I have reached and made game on these auctions, in spades), but we disrupt the auction significantly while getting partner off to a good lead.

Many pairs haven't even discussed the meaning of double of this call, btw, which adds to its utility. In fact, I don't think that I have explicitly discussed it in either of my two current expert partnerships, even tho we certainly treat the overcall this way when we make it.

It is also a very tough call to penalize, precisely because no-one knows about partner's suit quality. When responder can hold 6532 or worse, opener can't even double on A10x... I may hold KQJ9xx and have 2 or 3 side tricks, between my hand and dummy.

[MFA]

DBL, 1NT and 2Y are natural.

I play 2X as natural too, but an interesting idea is to use it as both majors 5-5 even when Y is a major.

[peachy]

I play 1NT is unbids about 5-5, Dbl is takeout for the two unbids (less distribution/more def), 2x and 2y natural. Both by passed and unpassed hands.