[lexlogan]

Playing a simple card, SAYC-like card today my partner held something like
Kxxx Axx Axxx Ax . I opened 1S, she bid 2NT (Jacoby), next hand doubled (no idea what that was supposed to be), I bid 3D (presumably still a singleton), partner jumped to 4S. I took that as discouraging and passed with AQxxxxx Kx x Kxx, making 7 easily.

My own style would be to play responder's jump to 4 of the agreed suit as exactly the sort of hand she held: four key cards or three plus the Queen of trumps, and little else. Other possible uses would include showing excellent trumps (with no side Ace) or showing a trick-rich, key-card poor hand. (Responder bids 3NT to show duplication of values.) Comments and suggestions for this rebid?

[ASkolnick]

1) She does not have a minimum with 4 keycards. 6 losers with LTC adjusted.
2) She has a good hand in context if double is supposed to be for minors. Can't see what else it can be. At most one loser in clubs, therefore where are your values.
3) There is a lot of room to let you cuebid below game. So there is no reason she couldn't make an encouraging, 3H, 3S (tell me more), 3N serious, but may be worried about it, or 4C.
4) I think a jump to 4S should be less encouraging on the general principle of fast arrival. With good hands, why take up your own room.

However, you could also make a move since opposite KS and A,A, you pretty much want to be in slam. The 5 level really should be safe.

[ArtK78]

Agree. Both partners should have bid more (in the case of responder, less is more).

Responder clearly has more than a minimum game force, so responder should bid something other than 4♠ which most play as denying slam interest in the context of the auction. 3♠ would be the most obvious call on responder's hand.

Opener, with 7 spades and controls in every suit, should bid on beyond 4♠. Just because responder doesn't have slam interest doesn't mean that this hand won't produce a slam.

[peachy]

Responder's jump to 4S means he does not have a hand that can cuebid (either too minimum or no aces outside of diamond). Or it means he has diamond wastage and/or no interest for slam in general. The actual responder hand fit none of these descriptions: it has lots of aces to cue, has extras, and no diamond wastage. Cuebid below game is not a slam force, just probing with a suitable hand with a little extra Kxxx-Axx-Axxx-Ax or with no wastage in partner's shown singleton Kxxx-Ax-xxxx-AQx.

[lexlogan]

Let me make it clear that I am not soliciting comments on partner's actual bidding; she INTENDED it as discouraging, which was clearly wrong. Many players misevaluate "Aces and spaces" type hands. Partner should simply have cue-bid 3S.

What I am interested in is the best theoretical use of the jump to 4S, assuming that:
(1) We avoid using "fast arrival" until someone has clearly limited their hand;
(2) 3NT is agreed to show duplication of values;
(3) new suits are control cue-bids;
(4) 3 of the major, when available (as it was here) suggests responder does not wish to cue-bid (or perhaps cannot) but still has full values and will cooperate if opener begins cue-bidding.

Those who adhere to (1) generally treat leaps to game (when other forcing bids are available) as "picture bids". So what's the best "picture bid" use of 4S?
a) 4 key cards (or 3+ the Queen) and little else
b) AKQx of trumps, no outside controls
c) Zero or one key cards, e.g., Kxxx KQx xxx KQx
d) Other, or specific variation of one of the above, such as requiring extra tricks for case c.

I'm thinking that where 3M is available (which applies after any singleton rebid except specifically 1H-2NT-3S), cases b and c can stall with 3M, while case a can always cue-bid; but all three are at the outer limits of partner's expectations and can be hard to portray accurately.

[peachy]

lexlogan, on Mar 16 2009, 09:50 PM, said:

Let me make it clear that I am not soliciting comments on partner's actual bidding; she INTENDED it as discouraging, which was clearly wrong. Many players misevaluate "Aces and spaces" type hands. Partner should simply have cue-bid 3S.

What I am interested in is the best theoretical use of the jump to 4S, assuming that:
(1) We avoid using "fast arrival" until someone has clearly limited their hand;
(2) 3NT is agreed to show duplication of values;
(3) new suits are control cue-bids;
(4) 3 of the major, when available (as it was here) suggests responder does not wish to cue-bid (or perhaps cannot) but still has full values and will cooperate if opener begins cue-bidding.

Those who adhere to (1) generally treat leaps to game (when other forcing bids are available) as "picture bids". So what's the best "picture bid" use of 4S?
a) 4 key cards (or 3+ the Queen) and little else
AKQx of trumps, no outside controls
c) Zero or one key cards, e.g., Kxxx KQx xxx KQx
d) Other, or specific variation of one of the above, such as requiring extra tricks for case c.

I'm thinking that where 3M is available (which applies after any singleton rebid except specifically 1H-2NT-3S), cases b and c can stall with 3M, while case a can always cue-bid; but all three are at the outer limits of partner's expectations and can be hard to portray accurately.

If you are opposed to "fast arrival", I believe you will face difficult bidding situations. The fast arrival is, AFAIK, also part of Jacoby 2NT.

I think it is best to simply agree that whichever partner JUMPS to 4S after bidding has started 1M-2NT[GF raise] _that person_ is limiting their hand as minimum and no slam interest; the other person can still go on if it is warranted, given that there is a minimum non-slammish hand opposite.

[jmcw]

peachy, on Mar 16 2009, 11:57 PM, said:

lexlogan, on Mar 16 2009, 09:50 PM, said:

Let me make it clear that I am not soliciting comments on partner's actual bidding; she INTENDED it as discouraging, which was clearly wrong. Many players misevaluate "Aces and spaces" type hands. Partner should simply have cue-bid 3S.

What I am interested in is the best theoretical use of the jump to 4S, assuming that:
(1) We avoid using "fast arrival" until someone has clearly limited their hand;
(2) 3NT is agreed to show duplication of values;
(3) new suits are control cue-bids;
(4) 3 of the major, when available (as it was here) suggests responder does not wish to cue-bid (or perhaps cannot) but still has full values and will cooperate if opener begins cue-bidding.

Those who adhere to (1) generally treat leaps to game (when other forcing bids are available) as "picture bids". So what's the best "picture bid" use of 4S?
a) 4 key cards (or 3+ the Queen) and little else
AKQx of trumps, no outside controls
c) Zero or one key cards, e.g., Kxxx KQx xxx KQx
d) Other, or specific variation of one of the above, such as requiring extra tricks for case c.

I'm thinking that where 3M is available (which applies after any singleton rebid except specifically 1H-2NT-3S), cases b and c can stall with 3M, while case a can always cue-bid; but all three are at the outer limits of partner's expectations and can be hard to portray accurately.

If you are opposed to "fast arrival", I believe you will face difficult bidding situations. The fast arrival is, AFAIK, also part of Jacoby 2NT.

I think it is best to simply agree that whichever partner JUMPS to 4S after bidding has started 1M-2NT[GF raise] _that person_ is limiting their hand as minimum and no slam interest; the other person can still go on if it is warranted, given that there is a minimum non-slammish hand opposite.

This is pretty much what I play.

[neilkaz]

IMHO, responder's rebid of 4♠ with Kxxx Axx Axxx Ax after you show a stiff with 3♦ is an extreme underbid. For me, in J2N sequences jumps to 4M show bare minimums..ie a hand almost so bad that you feel that you stretched to make your previous call.

Responder after seeing the 3♦ call should be thinking slam with this control oriented 15 HCP and noting that you can ruff his 3♦ losers in hand.

Responder's call should clearly be a forward going Q-bid of 3♥.

.. neilkaz ..

[jdonn]

Your partner might as well even bid blackwood over 3♦, his hand is that good and I don't see what cuebidding gets you.

I think you have an automatic pass over your partner's 4♠ bid, although I agree you are certainly allowed to bid on over it if your hand is good enough.

[lexlogan]

I found an article by Jim Jacoby (on the ACBL website) which defines the jump to 4 of the major as the "wasted values" bid. I don't know where I picked up using 3NT for that purpose, but I certainly prefer that -- opener is unlimited in strength, why prevent him from initiating a cue-bid sequence? We've all seen hands where the right 9 hcp makes slam. So, I'm still interested in thoughts about 4M as a picture bid.

[peachy]

lexlogan, on Mar 17 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

I found an article by Jim Jacoby (on the ACBL website) which defines the jump to 4 of the major as the "wasted values" bid. I don't know where I picked up using 3NT for that purpose, but I certainly prefer that -- opener is unlimited in strength, why prevent him from initiating a cue-bid sequence? We've all seen hands where the right 9 hcp makes slam. So, I'm still interested in thoughts about 4M as a picture bid.

In the auction 1M-2NT-3D-4S, the 4S bidder has wasted values in diamonds. So it could be a picture bid in the sense that it says "I have good diamonds but they are worthless to you" . I don't really understand what you mean by using the term *picture bid* - what "pictures" is responder showing or denying by 4M in your suggested modified Jacoby?

[neilkaz]

Peachy is spot on here, at least for me and my experience playing "standard" responses to J2N.

After the 3♦ showing a stiff, 4♠ is a picture bid and the picture it paints is a minimum game forcing trump raise with wasted values in ♦

[lexlogan]

peachy, on Mar 18 2009, 02:38 AM, said:

lexlogan, on Mar 17 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

I found an article by Jim Jacoby (on the ACBL website) which defines the jump to 4 of the major as the "wasted values" bid.  I don't know where I picked up using 3NT for that purpose, but I certainly prefer that -- opener is unlimited in strength, why prevent him from initiating a cue-bid sequence? We've all seen hands where the right 9 hcp makes slam. So, I'm still interested in thoughts about 4M as a picture bid.

In the auction 1M-2NT-3D-4S, the 4S bidder has wasted values in diamonds. So it could be a picture bid in the sense that it says "I have good diamonds but they are worthless to you" . I don't really understand what you mean by using the term *picture bid* - what "pictures" is responder showing or denying by 4M in your suggested modified Jacoby?

A "picture bid" describes all the slam-worthy features of a hand at once. I gave some examples: AKQ of trumps with no outside controls; four key cards or three plus the Queen, no additional values; zero or one key cards.

Using 4S to show "wasted values" describes only one element of the hand, namely, that it no longer has 12 working high card points. It does not promise or deny side Aces or Kings, or the quality of the trump support. Suppose opener has AJxxx xx x AKQJx. He's too strong for an immediate jump to 4C, so he replies to Jacoby with 3D. Does responder have KQxx Axx Kxx xxx ? Then 6S is virtually a lay-down. Or does responder have Qxxx QJx AQJx xx ? Now the 5 level is unsafe. "Fast Arrival" opposite an unlimited partner is fundamentally unsound.

[ASkolnick]

Well, at some point someone has to limit their hand.

I think 4 clubs is a fine bid on the hand you proposed. It has nothing to do with strength. This is what a "picture bid" would mean. Now, you can look at your cover cards in the red suits, to determine if you have a good hand. Now you know Q empty in red suits are wasted values.

In Jim Jacoby's case, it is possible that when declarer bids 4 of major, it shows KJ or KQ+ in the shortness suit instead of just a minimum. Many people would bid 3N with that type of hand instead, but some people play a "serious" 3N which demands a cue-bid.

I know I used to play a "not-so-serious" 3N, which meant that was the hand with extras, but also had wasted values in the shortness.

[mikestar]

I think fast arrival is one of the most abused bridge ideas ever. The jump to game should not mean "I have a minimum", it should mean "game is the limit, there is no slam"--clearly the latter meaning is impossible opposite an unlimited hand, so fast arrival doesn't (shouldn't) apply in this case.

[keylime]

The day I ditched fast arrival, was the day I finally could tolerate playing 2/1 GF.

J2NT is not a bad treatment if you build some structure around it.

[mikeh]

The problem lies in the underlying method. There are many versions of J2N, and the one in use here is one of the primitive ones.

I think we are all agreed that in the OP, responder made a basic blunder... her hand was so far from a minimum that I (almost) agree with Josh that she could keycard. I wouldn't... I would have bid 3♥ as the cheapest cue to show that I liked my hand opposite a stiff diamond.

But the OP wasn't looking for comments on partner's poor judgement, but, rather, comments on a structure moving forward, with particular reference to 4♠/3N

I assume that the partnership agreement is that they cannot stop in 3N after this start (in my partnerships we have the agreement, which I think is common, that we can't play 3N after a J2N response, which allows 3N to be put to various purposes).

I actually don't have a use for 3N when I play primitive J2N... over a 3♥ rebid by opener, 3N would say I am still interested, but I lack a club control. But over 3♦, I cannot still be interested and lack both heart and club controls AND be unable to bid a waiting 3♠.

So it makes sense to use it as 'still interested but with diamond wastage... so you need to have significant extras to keep going', while 4♠ would be: 'forget it, if you couldn't bid slam over 2N, my hand is very bad.. lots of soft slow diamonds and a minimum, hope we make game'.

However, if I were going to invest in a partnership discussion to this level of detail, I'd scrap primitive J2N and use on of the better versions... there are lots available.

[peachy]

keylime, on Mar 18 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

The day I ditched fast arrival, was the day I finally could tolerate playing 2/1 GF.

J2NT is not a bad treatment if you build some structure around it.

J2NT is a simple tool. I know there are other methods available that have more structure and definition in them. Also possible to make AGREEMENTS that are not part of standard J2NT.

The thread began "Playing a simple SAYC-like card ...and Jacoby 2NT" and has now swayed to "What changes should be made to the J2NT convention"

[mikeh]

peachy, on Mar 18 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

keylime, on Mar 18 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

The day I ditched fast arrival, was the day I finally could tolerate playing 2/1 GF.

J2NT is not a bad treatment if you build some structure around it.

J2NT is a simple tool. I know there are other methods available that have more structure and definition in them. Also possible to make AGREEMENTS that are not part of standard J2NT.

The thread began "Playing a simple SAYC-like card ...and Jacoby 2NT" and has now swayed to "What changes should be made to the J2NT convention"

Actually, the thread began with asking about the meaning of a bid not usually defined within SAYC or 'basic' J2N so was 'what use should we put this non-sayc/non-basic J2N development to?': it never was about 'what is the SAYC or the standard J2N meaning of this?'. I thought he was inviting comments, and my advice was that once you start adding your own twists, you are into the (very useful) area of partnership agreements... no matter how the OP decided 3N should be viewed, he will never be able to use it that way absent agreement, since there is no 'standard', and if he is going to have that level of discussion, why not go the next step and use a better method?

[TimG]

jdonn, on Mar 17 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

Your partner might as well even bid blackwood over 3♦, his hand is that good and I don't see what cuebidding gets you.

It would be nice if partner were the one doing the keycarding since we have little beyond the keycards and four trumps -- he's likely the one looking at the long-card tricks.

I like a 4♦ bid, raising the splinter must mean that the hands fit well. Perhaps partner can bid keycard over that and I can tell my whole story when I show 4 keycards.