[MarkDean]

I remember when people opening 1NT with a five card major was rare. Now it seems that many players open all (5332) hands in range with 1NT.

Do y'all open 1NT with all (5332) 15-17 counts? If not, what do you take into account? Personally, I only do it if I have 3 cards in the other major, and then not with a decent 17, or if the hand looks particularly suit-oriented.

Do you have an idea of why this transition happened? Or was it just that my peers when I was learning were not doing it, and the experts have been doing it the whole time?

[hanp]

Not only do you bid like an old man, you talk like an old man as well! Aren't you a junior? I suspect you have been talking with different people rather than that there has been a huge shift in style.

I rarely open 1NT with a 17-count and a 5-card major. I think getting the major in is enough of an excuse to upgrade. If all my honors are concentrated in two suits (including the long one) then I might open 1M as well, for the rest I pretty much always open 1NT.

[Lobowolf]

The main cause was probably the although both bids have plusses and minuses, on balance, the largest minus is the rebid after opening 1M. I'm with Han; I probably upgrade a majority of my 17's, and open 1M on some hands that look irretrievably suit-oriented, but I'm mostly opening 1NT. I also play Puppet Stayman over 1NT to mitigate the downside, at least when responder has enough to game force.

Partners I have who aren't as tied to "1NT when reasonably possible" as I am look at things like no doubleton in the other major, slow tricks, values in the short suits, etc.

[rogerclee]

I think this is a different question at matchpoints or IMPs, and whether I have spades or hearts. But anyway, I usually open 1N, it is very preemptive and descriptive and solves all my rebid problems.

The other day I posted this hand, ♠T9 ♥AKQJ9 ♦K98 ♣QTx, and I opened this 1♥. I thought this was in the 1M category, but change it just a little, like ♠JT ♥AKQ9x ♦K98 ♣QTx, and I would open 1N.

[mikestar]

I virtually always open 1NT with 15-16 and a five card major. I upgrade most 17's and open the major and also upgrade most 14's and open 1NT.

I only deviate with a strong 5 card major (strong enough to pretend it is a 6 carder) and a hand that gains little or no advantage from declaring NT.

[awm]

I think this is a complicated issue. There are a lot of arguments either way. In favor of opening 1M:

(1) When partner's broke, 1M is usually a better spot than 1NT.
(2) You might find a light game if partner has a shapely fitting hand.
(3) The strong notrump is excellent for penalizing opponents after 1M-P-2M and a balance.

In favor of opening 1NT:

(1) It's easier to bid game when pd has 8-9 while staying low when partner has less.
(2) You solve rebid problems after 1♥-1♠.
(3) You might "right-side" the contract since 1NT opener declares most hands.
(4) It becomes easier to reach a 5-3 fit in the other major.
(5) Many people have put in a great deal of work on their 1NT methods.

For me this depends somewhat on system. Playing 2/1 without any special agreements, I tend to open 1NT almost all the time (although obviously this is subject to upgrades both into and out of the notrump range; many hands with five-card suit do get upgraded). Playing a system which provides a bit more flexibility (for example adding gazzilli), I tend to avoid opening 1NT with a doubleton in the other major or when my hand lacks tenaces (i.e. lots of ace-empty suits or honor sequences, rather than unguarded kings). It also depends a bit on form of scoring; opening 1M is often better at matchpoints where getting to the right partial is key and missing the occasional borderline game is not as big a deal, plus people balance like lunatics over 1M-2M and you actually get a lot of bonanzas out of it, more than compensating for the thin games you occasionally miss. At IMPs virtually everything is the opposite (partscores are less important, people are much less aggressive in balancing chair, missing a 25 hcp 3NT is often quite bad).

I do think that "modern" players open 1NT more often on these hands. But some of this is due to system being less flexible in the modern game, and some is due to a heavy emphasis on IMP play among many top players.

[whereagles]

The reason people sucessefully dump 5 card majors into 1NT is because the opening can take quite a beating before becoming too random.

[FrancesHinden]

The 17-count thing is a red herring, not really related to whether you systemically have a five-card major in your 1NT opening. It's more that many 17-counts with a 5-card suit are too good for a 'normal' 15-17 1NT opening. You wouldn't (shouldn't, at any rate) open Axx xx Axx AKQxx 1NT either, it's just far too good a hand.

I don't want to get into the whole "which is better" rant, but here are a few comments.

- It's very much a modern North American style to open all 15-17 equivalent balanced (ish) hands 1NT with a five card major.
- There are still plenty of very good players who generally don't do it. I also usually open 1 major. So do virtually all the French, I believe.
- The arguments should be about (i) the effect on the competitive auction, and (ii) the relative merits of (e.g.) bidding 1NT-3NT quickly vs having a slower auction to a better spot but revealing more about your hand.
- "I can't cope with the rebid" should not an argument if you are in a regular partnership. I have sufficient methods after a 1M opening that I do not have a serious problem, compared to the advantage I believe I get from being able to open the major. Saying you should open 1NT because you have put a lot of work into your 1NT methods seems backwards to me. I decide what I want to open, and then put a lot of work into the openings that come up most frequently.

It's true that over the past few years I've changed a bit. I now open maybe 10% of hands with 5 hearts 1NT in first or second seat, up from 0%. A five card spade suit is rarer. (Third & fourth seat 1NT openings are slightly different.)

[helene_t]

I generally open 1NT as often as possible, but that is because of simplicity (for casual partnerships), not because I believe it is "better" (for regular partnerships). I agree with Frances that "I can't cope with the rebid" should not be an argument, as long as you can solve the issue by making different agreements about rebids.

That said, the 1M openings are already much heavier loaded than the 1NT opening, even if you always open 1NT with 5M332, and the extra space you gain from opening 1♠ rather than 1NT probably doesn't make up for it. This forum is full of rebid problems related to 1M openings. I think a few of these rebid problems become easier if the partnership takes advantage of the inference that 1M denies a 5332 15-17.

OTOH, you will have to open 1M with the 5M332 outside the NT range anyway, and if the auction cause you to re-evaluate them to 15 or 17 you will have to bid them, so you might as well open 1M with 15-17.

Finally: With a decent 16-count with which I would owe partner a third bid after his 2M preference bid, I would rather open 1NT to avoid ending in 2NT with 6-7 points in the dummy. With a modest 15-count with which I am happy to pass partner's preference bid, opening 1M is slightly more attractive.

[lexlogan]

I used to avoid 1NT with a five card major at matchpoints, on the theory that we likely have a major suit fit and that fit is likely to produce an extra trick. However, when partner raises with 6-7 points, we're apt to make a game try with our 15-17. So when we have a fit, we'll play at least 3, and when we don't, we can't play 1NT. Playing constructive raises doesn't seem to help much; after 1S-1NT-2C-2S, for example, responder can still have 9 or 10 points (with a doubleton) and so opener is again apt to make a game try, thereby landing in 2NT or higher on a lot of hands that would've played 1NT if he'd opened that instead.

At IMPs the arguments seem heavily in favor of opening 1NT; +90 instead of +110 loses 1 IMP while -50 against +90 loses 4 IMPs. I would still open 1S rather than 1NT with AJxxx xx AKx Axx (to give an extreme example).

[hanp]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 17 2009, 06:56 AM, said:

The 17-count thing is a red herring, not really related to whether you systemically have a five-card major in your 1NT opening. It's more that many 17-counts with a 5-card suit are too good for a 'normal' 15-17 1NT opening. You wouldn't (shouldn't, at any rate) open Axx xx Axx AKQxx 1NT either, it's just far too good a hand.

No it is not a red herring, I (and others) will open 1M with a 17-count and a five-card major even if we think it isn't worth 18. On some auctions we will have to overbid but most pof the time we won't, and some of the disadvantages of opening 1M do not occur when you have a 17-count.

Quote

- The arguments should be about (i) the effect on the competitive auction, and (ii) the relative merits of (e.g.) bidding 1NT-3NT quickly vs having a slower auction to a better spot but revealing more about your hand.

I don't agree, if you want to have an argument you should consider all the factors, including:

Quote

- "I can't cope with the rebid" should not an argument if you are in a regular partnership.  I have sufficient methods after a 1M opening that I do not have a serious problem, compared to the advantage I believe I get from being able to open the major.

Any time you open 1M with a balanced 15- or 16- and partner makes a single raise you have a problem. You may have perfect methods to deal with the auctions starting 1H-1S but things could be easier (and better) if you wouldn't have a balanced 15-16 count. Also, you probably won't be able to play in 1NT. Of course I can't argue with the claim that the problems are smaller than the advantages you believe to get.

Quote

  Saying you should open 1NT because you have put a lot of work into your 1NT methods seems backwards to me.  I decide what I want to open, and then put a lot of work into the openings that come up most frequently.

I agree, that is indeed a stupid argument.

[CSGibson]

I open 15-17 with 5 card majors. I especially enjoy opening 17 with a 5 card major, because we have a systematic bid to show that (jump to the 3 level over stayman). Partner understands that I bid that way, and invites with 8 counts because I won't upgrade without a serious cause.

[Free]

I was used to always open 1NT with a 5M332 because it's the general style. As long as you have a tool to find out about the 5 card M you usually get to the right game. Part scores however can be less of a success.

The last couple of years I prefer to play some sort of 2/1 GF with Gazzilli. This handles 5M332 with 16+HCP without a problem, and with 15 you usually get to 2M in a 5-2 or 5-3 fit which is playable most of the time.

Both styles seem to work ok, but I have a feeling that opening 1NT only with a poor 5 card suit is probably best (to be well placed for part score battles, and not to end up in a 5-2 fit when the 5 card is poor).

A few weeks ago I heard about another style which I think nobody has mentioned yet: open 1NT if you have 3 card OM, open 1M if you have a doubleton OM. Advantage is that if responder has a 5 card OM, you won't play 2M in a 5-2 fit while you have a 5-3 fit available. I don't have experience with this style, but I'm interested in opinions.

[hanp]

Quote

A few weeks ago I heard about another style which I think nobody has mentioned yet: open 1NT if you have 3 card OM, open 1M if you have a doubleton OM. Advantage is that if responder has a 5 card OM, you won't play 2M in a 5-2 fit while you have a 5-3 fit available. I don't have experience with this style, but I'm interested in opinions.

There are many factors that can make opening 1NT more appealing, having 3 cards in the other major is one of them.

[TimG]

Free, on Mar 17 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

A few weeks ago I heard about another style which I think nobody has mentioned yet: open 1NT if you have 3 card OM, open 1M if you have a doubleton OM. Advantage is that if responder has a 5 card OM, you won't play 2M in a 5-2 fit while you have a 5-3 fit available. I don't have experience with this style, but I'm interested in opinions.

This is mentioned in WJ05 A Modern Version of Polish Club. It was the first place I had seen it in print, though I doubt it is the first it has appeared.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 17 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

- "I can't cope with the rebid" should not an argument if you are in a regular partnership.  I have sufficient methods after a 1M opening that I do not have a serious problem, compared to the advantage I believe I get from being able to open the major.

Having seen how much system Frances and one of her partners consider "sufficient" to deal with this problem, I can confidently say, "I don't want to have to cope with the rebid".

Different players have different limits on how much system they can remember without its affecting the rest of their game. However serious the partnership, it's perfectly reasonable to decide that, whilst it might be possible to devise methods that make opening the major workable, the cost of having to remember these methods is too great.

[skjaeran]

TimG, on Mar 17 2009, 09:28 PM, said:

Free, on Mar 17 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

A few weeks ago I heard about another style which I think nobody has mentioned yet: open 1NT if you have 3 card OM, open 1M if you have a doubleton OM.  Advantage is that if responder has a 5 card OM, you won't play 2M in a 5-2 fit while you have a 5-3 fit available.  I don't have experience with this style, but I'm interested in opinions.

This is mentioned in WJ05 A Modern Version of Polish Club. It was the first place I had seen it in print, though I doubt it is the first it has appeared.

I played in a regular partnership about ten years ago where my partner only opened 1NT with a 5-card major if he had three in the other major. Just for the reason mentioned - you'd not get to the wrong major when partner transferred and passed. I don't know how this affected our scores, since I never made an issue of checking.

However, my inclination is to open all balanced hand with a 5-card major in range 1NT. I frequently upgrade hands with a 5-bagger, be it a major or a minor. But I'm much more reluctant to upgrade 4333's and 4432's - I need a lot of good intermediates and nice honour combinations to do that.

[whereagles]

Max Hardy's book recommends the style of only opening wih 5M if you have 3 in the other major.

[Cascade]

I did a simulation ...

If we have five cards in a major and two cards in the other major partner will have five cards in our short major and three cards in our long major less than 5% of the time.

If this only causes a problem when we are playing a part-score, in other words if we can untangle our fits when going to game, then this reduces to a little over 2% of the time.

Further some of the time the 5=2 fit will play as well as (or even better than) the 5=3 fit so there will be no problem. Nearly 1/3 of the time in simulation. And some of the rest both part-scores made or failed so there was only a small gain.

All in all three cards in the other major seems a minor consideration when opening 1NT with a five-card major.

[whereagles]

Good work. Thx.