[ghow]

u hold AKJ97 AK8 3 KQT6 red v. white rho opens 1nt (15-17)

1. your bid ?

2. if you X, lho bids 2c = clubs and another (can be 4-4) pd passes and rho bids 2d alerted as "no fit for clubs." what now?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 a matter of agreement, but it seems you play X as pen.,
and you have a penalty X, so make the bid
#2 2S, you have to start bidding your suits, X would be for
penalty, and you dont have penalty double against a
diamond contract

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

I'm gonna gamble we don't have a game on and pass. Expect to make 7-8 tricks on defense.

[hackenbush]

I'm not defending 1nt or 2d undoubled. We won't get rich at 50 a trick.

[quiddity]

#1. If I had a penalty double of 1NT available, I'd use it. Unfortunately I use DONT here, so I have no idea what to bid. Maybe X followed by 2S, in the hope that partner might be able to dredge up a raise or bid a good heart suit over the double.

#2. This is also a matter of agreement. I play that after the opponents run, the first double by our side is takeout. So here I would double and rebid spades.

[mikestar]

Assuming we are playing penalty doubles, #1 is clear cut--if we don't double on this hand, when will we?

They are clearly escaping from 1NTX, so I would pass 2♦, forcing.

[mike777]

ghow, on Mar 16 2009, 05:18 PM, said:

u hold AKJ97 AK8 3 KQT6 red v. white rho opens 1nt (15-17)

1. your bid ?

2. if you X, lho bids 2c = clubs and another (can be 4-4) pd passes and rho bids 2d alerted as "no fit for clubs." what now?

2c ...=clubs and other.

next

[Codo]

1. easy pass, pen. double of strong NT "never" works. Even when you have one, like here, they often run.

2. double is take out, so I can use it. Without a take out double, I bid 2 Spade.

[hanp]

Easy double followed by 2S. Glad to have the penalty double available to show I have a strong hand.

[Apollo81]

If I can make a takeout double at my second chance, I'd do that. I think partner will be able to pass when it's right since I have shown a penalty double of a 15-17 notrump.

I will be converting partner's 2♥ bid to 2♠ if it comes to that.

[ArtK78]

I don't play penalty doubles of strong NTs, as I don't believe they are useful. Matter of philosophy.

I bid 2♣ - clubs and another suit (DONT). I want to play the hand. Game is possible, but unlikely (and DONT is not used as a constructive bidding method).

[Fluffy]

the way to fin game on this kind of hands is to pass and hope partner might reopen.

Penalty double then 2♠ looks like a good description also.

[andy_h]

These big unbalanced hands can be quite deadly. Give partner 4S and the CJ and game in stinkin hot. I would X 1NT and would probably double 2D for takeout (but 2S is ok) so I can still get a chance to defend (and also removing partner's 2H to 2S). Going via this sequence can let partner see that we're typically 5314 and that will probably let him judge whether his hopeful 1-3 counts are good or not. This is assuming our penalty doubles are for real and not some random junk. I think passing and hoping to have partner reopen is almost never going to happen.

Last time this type of situation that came up (luckily it was my RHO would held this kind of hand), they were cold for a grand.

[JLOL]

ArtK78, on Mar 17 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

Game is possible, but unlikely

LOL

[JLOL]

FWIW you should always play takeout doubles in NF pass situations, and some would argue you should even play them in low level FP situations (probably right but not how I have played them). I would play pass here as NF and would X for takeout. If I had no agreements I would go low with 2S since nothing else is sensible and hope to catch a raise.

[mikeh]

JLOL, on Mar 20 2009, 10:19 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Mar 17 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

Game is possible, but unlikely

LOL

I think he was speaking in terms of a philosophy over strong 1N openings.. he doesn't use penalty doubles because one rarely has the type of hand on which one can penalize them, and game, for our side, is low frequency after they open a strong 1N.

I agree with Art insofar as thinking that both on frequency and size of gain (adjusted for frequency arguments), there are more effective uses for double than penalty. I disagree if he means what he says (I don't think he does) to the effect that a penalty double cannot be 'useful'. Of course it can, and if I knew that I would often pick up a 5431 20 count over their 1N, I would switch to penalty doubles in a heartbeat.

And I am sure that Art would agree that there remain extremely good game prospects here, on this low-frequency setup.

Taking someone's post and editing it (by snipping, not by altering the quoted passage) to make it look silly, and to allow the editor to add his favourite mocking remark, is unfair.

BTW, fwiw, I agree entirely with jlol's last post.

[brianshark]

Assuming you can't double for t/o the second time, I would just pass. Maybe pard can double them himself, maybe he bids a new suit after my "take-out pass". Maybe the auction does not stop in 2♦ either. 2♦ passing out would be unfortunate but such is life.

[pirate22]

so give us the answer what actually happened