[Phil]

w/r xImps

♠QTx ♥J9 ♦A ♣Q98xxxx

1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 4♠
5♥ - pass - pass - ?

[Hanoi5]

Why did I bid 4♠ on this hand? Are clubs and spades mixed? I pass and lead a small club.

[Echognome]

Wasn't my 4♠ call intended to make them guess? It's not a call I would have made, but it seems to have worked out as I wanted it to. So I don't understand what I am thinking about now. I made them guess, they guessed. Time to see if they guessed correctly. No reason to double now.

Edit: To answer what I would have done, I would have made a snapdragon double over 2♥. Not ideal (2 extra cards in clubs), but it would get 5 of my clubs and my spade support across in one call.

[Phil]

Echognome, on Mar 9 2009, 10:59 AM, said:

Edit: To answer what I would have done, I would have made a snapdragon double over 2♥. Not ideal (2 extra cards in clubs), but it would get 5 of my clubs and my spade support across in one call.

1st with this partner. The cc had Rosecranz (), not snapdragon.

[OleBerg]

Double.

I've made my own bed and must sleep in it (defend).

I don't double because I definetly believes it is of, but when I lead the ♦A, partner will know it is a singleton, and can Lavinthal on the first card.

[hanp]

A snapdragon double shows 3-card support? Not for me.

We need 3 tricks. I would lead the diamond ace and hope to find partner with a black ace. If partner doesn't have a black ace then we are taking at most 1 spade and probably no club, so it doesn't seem likely that we would beat it.

[hanp]

Sorry, just noticed the poll, I didn't realize it was also a bidding problem. I would pass.

[Echognome]

Phil, on Mar 9 2009, 08:04 AM, said:

1st with this partner. The cc had Rosecranz (), not snapdragon.

I thought they covered different auctions.

According to here: http://www.bridgehan...antz_Double.htm

Rosencrantz would be for (1♦) - 1♠ - (2♦) - Dbl

According to Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....senkranz_double

It's more general "if a player overcalls an opening bid and the next player makes a bid, a double by the partner of the overcaller (advancer) shows a raise in partner's suit that includes the ace, king or queen of that suit."

Snapdragon is specific to when 3 suits have been bid naturally: http://en.wikipedia....apdragon_double

So I guess what I'm saying is that, in theory, you could play both, although I wouldn't want to assume it without discussion.

[Echognome]

hanp, on Mar 9 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

A snapdragon double shows 3-card support? Not for me.

There's a big difference between showing and allowing. For me you have a problem if you have a 3-6 hand and not enough values for bidding the 6-card suit naturally. To me, I'd rather show 8 of my cards than 3. If we had a 4-5 hand we might choose to fit jump with it (not on this particular set of values and honor locations, but on other hands). So the question is, does a snapdragon double deny 3-card support for you?

[TimG]

Count me amongst the passers who lead the ♦A.

I think I would have tried 2♠ instead of 4♠ at the table (lacking any special gadgetry).

[neilkaz]

I pass... I am not confident enough of setting this via the A♦ lead, a quick entry in PD's hand and a ruff to X. Nor am I confident enough of three tricks on defence.

[hanp]

Echognome, on Mar 9 2009, 12:19 PM, said:

hanp, on Mar 9 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

A snapdragon double shows 3-card support? Not for me.

There's a big difference between showing and allowing. For me you have a problem if you have a 3-6 hand and not enough values for bidding the 6-card suit naturally. To me, I'd rather show 8 of my cards than 3. If we had a 4-5 hand we might choose to fit jump with it (not on this particular set of values and honor locations, but on other hands). So the question is, does a snapdragon double deny 3-card support for you?

I didn't claim it denied, but it would be faily unusual for me not to show support in this auction when I have it. And the double certainly doesn't show support, which is what you implied in your first post and what I reacted to.

Now that you seem to have changed your mind, we can do the adding correctly: the double doesn't show 3 spades but 2, so the double shows 2+5 = 7 cards, not 8. And I think this counting-the-number-of-cards-you-show argument is sort of silly anyhow, showing that third spade is more important to me than showing 5 clubs.

Bidding 3C first and then 3S (if the opponents allow it) has some merit: at least we would show long clubs and 3 spades. But I like 2S best, 3S also comes to mind, it invites partner to bid 4S over 4H. But that said, I'm very pleased with how the 4S call worked out.

[Echognome]

Yes I said support, when tolerance would have been better.

Whether it shows 7 or 8 cards is by agreement! So 2+5 = 7 and 2+6 = 8 (to use your illustrious example). That's what I was referring to when I mentioned 8 cards.

Whether it's better to show 3-card support with 2♠ or only show 2-3 card support and 5 clubs, that would obviously depend upon the hand. Here I prefer showing the clubs and spades (even though it's more likely I will have 2 than 3 card support). I can certainly understand other people feeling differently.

Instead of 3 clubs then bidding spades later, why not snapdragon and then bid spades later? Wouldn't this show the value of the hand better? That's what I have in mind. Of course when 4♥ comes back to us, we have a decision.

[whereagles]

Pass + diamond lead. Lead can work wrong, but pass certainly seems right

[jdonn]

I can't be bothered to read all this other talk, but I think it's a wtp pass. 4♠ did what it was supposed to do.

[hanp]

First post:

Quote

Edit: To answer what I would have done, I would have made a snapdragon double over 2♥.  Not ideal (2 extra cards in clubs), but it would get 5 of my clubs and my spade support across in one call.

Last post:

Echognome, on Mar 9 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

Yes I said support, when tolerance would have been better.

Whether it shows 7 or 8 cards is by agreement!  So 2+5 = 7 and 2+6 = 8 (to use your illustrious example).  That's what I was referring to when I mentioned 8 cards.

You don't seem to agree with yourself today.

I do agree with you that snapdragon followed by 3S would convey about the same message as 3C followed by 3S, (if you get the chance.) 3C has the advantage that it immediately shows long clubs, double has the advantage that it immediately shows spade tolerance.

[Echognome]

Because that's the way I play it. I play it as 5 cards + 2-card support minimum, but the confusion is because I subsequently read that some play it as 6-card support + tolerance. Of course I could have been clearer. I hope it's clearer for you now.